Dread Nought but the Fury of the Seas
- Thread starter sts-200
- Start date
This is the kind of ship that would limp in to World War II because you haven't been able to replace it after the building holiday expired. Tiger or Derfflinger would have been thoroughly outclassed by any post-Jutland capital ship.
It's more unreasonable. The KGVs were rightly criticized for their 14-inch guns when they showed up in a world where 15-inch guns were only an acceptable compromise if the sacrifice could get you 30 knots, like Littorio or Richelieu.
I see that you're still thinking in terms of the battle line, remember that the end of this kind of engagement is not far, this means that the rule of the day will be episodes like Denmark straight, action off lotenhofen or guadalcanal, essentially single duels or something like that, were numbers or a qualitative numerous squadron ( squadron not fleet) like surigao straight will give victory.
The KGVs, in my humble opinion, were the most reasonable cost-effective design. But anyway, is you insist that the real power is only in the 16 inch them I throw the towel.
How would Dunkerque have done against Bismark in the stead of Hood or Prince of Wales?
We already know how the Twins faired against a ship of similar size with lighter armor and heavier guns. We also know what happened when Scharnhorst faced Duke of York several years later.
The rebuilt Kongos are very similar to the specifications you've been trying to lay out, and Kirishima got crushed by one real battleships (Washington was the only one that actually engaged her with effect) after bouncing a 14-inch AP shell off South Dakota's belt at 5,000 yards.
In those cases, I specifically was referring to the dimensions of the engagement compared with Dogger bank or Stavenger/Jutland and the case of guadalcanal is interesting( an exception) because after all was a night action were radar on one side and the lack of it in other played a critical factor.
Not quite, since my minimum acceptable armor thickness would be 11 inches with 12 inches been the decent. The Kongos on the other hand never change the puny 8 inch
The line of battle in North Cape had one ship on each side. Just because there aren't a dozen capital ships in line ahead doesn't mean that there isn't a line of battle that needs ships worthy of standing in it against the enemy's opposite numbers.
The case of Guadalcanal is a case of a battleship with 14-inch guns failing to get through the armor of a ship designed to resist 16-inch gunfire.
Washington and South Dakota could have easily gone through most of Yamato's armor at the ranges that engagement was fought at. A few inches extra isn't going to save Kirishima there.
Granted, but are you saying that an upgraded Mackensen or even a 6x15" SCH barely stand a chance against a KGV that is supposedly under gunned?
And that was designed in the mid thirties with all the available modern technology against an under armored old «battleship».
Maybe not, but wouldn't cripple her either. In Yamato's case, if there's a reasonable research that support that statement, I gladly granted it.
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Bigger guns mean better chance of a single hit causing debilitating damage. Considering that Scharnhorst's only hits on DoY were on the masts, bigger shells wouldn't have changed anything. However, Scharnhorst's hit on Norfolk would have had significantly more effect with a shell well more than twice the weight (330 kg vs 800 kg).
Kirishima's armor and fire control has nothing to do with its shell failing to penetrate South Dakota's armor. All of the Japanese 36 cm guns in World War II were using upgraded, modern AP shells (Type 91 1,480 lbs), which was what hit South Dakota.
The battle happened at ranges between 5 and 10 kiloyards, so the 16"/45 Mark 6 guns on both Washington and South Dakota could penetrate 24 to 26 inches of vertical armor plate. Yamato had 16 inches of belt armor at 20 degrees, equivalent to about 17 inches of vertical armor and about 18 inches considering the 3 - 6 degree angle of fall of Mark 6 shells at these ranges. The Mark 6 shells would be able to penetrate Yamato's belt with Yamato angled at up to about 45 degrees away from broadside, at which point shells would be able to go through the 14-inch transverse bulkheads instead of the belt.
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Any RN Admiral of 1940 would have given his arm for them.
It's about the most damning criticism I can level at them -
Compare the Alaskas to battlecruisers built 30 years earlier, and they come out reasonably well.
Compare them to battlecruisers of 28 years earlier (the Renowns), and they're about even.
All navies are entitled to one folly...
Sale or Sail
Sale or Sail
During the opening days of the peace negotiations in Stockholm, the chief British negotiator, Admiral Jellicoe, tentatively agreed that the German Navy would hand over eight modern capital ships (nearly half the total force), along with 10 cruisers, 40 modern destroyers, and all surviving submarines.
The Germans were willing to concede the ships relatively easily, as they had partly lost control of their navy. German sailors could no longer be relied upon to attack the British, and so the fleet had become little more than a Baltic defence force. Its remaining value lay in being traded, in return for more favourable terms elsewhere.
Jellicoe wanted the German ships to be interned in either Sweden or Norway until a peace treaty was signed. Legal niceties meant that they would not technically be ‘surrendered’, they would be sold to the Allies, or rather their value would be netted off against compensation owed by Germany.
However, the German government was open to other kinds of trade. The Dutch had proven themselves useful neutrals throughout the war, particularly recently when information had leaked to Allied troops regarding the German peace offer. The Allied blockade of Germany remained in force, but with the armistice, the import route through the Netherlands had partially re-opened for urgently needed basic foodstuffs.
On the 18th October, the government of the Netherlands announced that it had agreed to purchase the Baden, Bayern, Hindenburg and Lutzow, along with four torpedo boats originally built for them, but taken over by Germany at the start of the war. The ships had already moved through the Kiel Canal, and before anyone could react were safely at anchor in Dutch waters, under the flag of the Royal Netherlands Navy.
Reaction in Britain ranged from outrage to approval, to grudging admiration. It was a clear sign that the Germans were committed to ending the war, while also being a sign that they weren’t afraid to play tough.
The British delegation in Stockholm responded by demanded the immediate surrender of the agreed vessels, to sail to a British port. The response did little to calm the situation, as the German government stated that they were entitled to do what they wanted with their own ships, but that they still intended to abide by the agreed terms and transfer eight of their most modern vessels to a neutral port.
For a moment it appeared that the negotiations themselves were in peril. However, after a day of tough negotiation, both sides took away something that they wanted. It was agreed that eight of the remaining German battleships would be ‘held as collateral’, but they would now be held in British waters.
The Royal Navy took charge of the handover and was determined to make the occasion as glorious as possible. On the afternoon of 21st October 1917, the major part of the German Fleet sailed under the Forth Bridge towards Rosyth, escorted by the Grand Fleet. The three surviving battleships of the ‘Konig’ class were followed by the five ‘Kaisers’, six cruisers and two destroyer flotillas.
That night’s celebrations would be remembered for many years to come.
The British also insisted on the surrender of the incomplete battlecruiser Mackensen. She was nowhere near complete, but to compensate for what the British saw as German duplicity, she was later towed to the Tyne, where she was scrapped in the early 1920s.
Several attempts were made by the Germans to substitute older ships for the ‘severely damaged’ Kronprinz, but the British would have none of it. If she sank in the North Sea, that was fine as far as the Royal Navy was concerned; but she would leave Germany. In the end, the bluff was exposed, and all the ships steamed safely into harbour.
For the German Fleet, it was the end of an era. The ships that sailed into Rosyth did so under the flag of the Kaiser's Navy, which was ceremonially hauled down that evening on all German ships, wherever they may be. The following morning, those that remained under German control hoisted the new ensign of the Deutsche Volksflotte, the German People's Fleet.
During the opening days of the peace negotiations in Stockholm, the chief British negotiator, Admiral Jellicoe, tentatively agreed that the German Navy would hand over eight modern capital ships (nearly half the total force), along with 10 cruisers, 40 modern destroyers, and all surviving submarines.
The Germans were willing to concede the ships relatively easily, as they had partly lost control of their navy. German sailors could no longer be relied upon to attack the British, and so the fleet had become little more than a Baltic defence force. Its remaining value lay in being traded, in return for more favourable terms elsewhere.
Jellicoe wanted the German ships to be interned in either Sweden or Norway until a peace treaty was signed. Legal niceties meant that they would not technically be ‘surrendered’, they would be sold to the Allies, or rather their value would be netted off against compensation owed by Germany.
However, the German government was open to other kinds of trade. The Dutch had proven themselves useful neutrals throughout the war, particularly recently when information had leaked to Allied troops regarding the German peace offer. The Allied blockade of Germany remained in force, but with the armistice, the import route through the Netherlands had partially re-opened for urgently needed basic foodstuffs.
On the 18th October, the government of the Netherlands announced that it had agreed to purchase the Baden, Bayern, Hindenburg and Lutzow, along with four torpedo boats originally built for them, but taken over by Germany at the start of the war. The ships had already moved through the Kiel Canal, and before anyone could react were safely at anchor in Dutch waters, under the flag of the Royal Netherlands Navy.
Reaction in Britain ranged from outrage to approval, to grudging admiration. It was a clear sign that the Germans were committed to ending the war, while also being a sign that they weren’t afraid to play tough.
The British delegation in Stockholm responded by demanded the immediate surrender of the agreed vessels, to sail to a British port. The response did little to calm the situation, as the German government stated that they were entitled to do what they wanted with their own ships, but that they still intended to abide by the agreed terms and transfer eight of their most modern vessels to a neutral port.
For a moment it appeared that the negotiations themselves were in peril. However, after a day of tough negotiation, both sides took away something that they wanted. It was agreed that eight of the remaining German battleships would be ‘held as collateral’, but they would now be held in British waters.
The Royal Navy took charge of the handover and was determined to make the occasion as glorious as possible. On the afternoon of 21st October 1917, the major part of the German Fleet sailed under the Forth Bridge towards Rosyth, escorted by the Grand Fleet. The three surviving battleships of the ‘Konig’ class were followed by the five ‘Kaisers’, six cruisers and two destroyer flotillas.
That night’s celebrations would be remembered for many years to come.
The British also insisted on the surrender of the incomplete battlecruiser Mackensen. She was nowhere near complete, but to compensate for what the British saw as German duplicity, she was later towed to the Tyne, where she was scrapped in the early 1920s.
Several attempts were made by the Germans to substitute older ships for the ‘severely damaged’ Kronprinz, but the British would have none of it. If she sank in the North Sea, that was fine as far as the Royal Navy was concerned; but she would leave Germany. In the end, the bluff was exposed, and all the ships steamed safely into harbour.
For the German Fleet, it was the end of an era. The ships that sailed into Rosyth did so under the flag of the Kaiser's Navy, which was ceremonially hauled down that evening on all German ships, wherever they may be. The following morning, those that remained under German control hoisted the new ensign of the Deutsche Volksflotte, the German People's Fleet.
Interesting developments.
Looking ahead to the 1930s, modernised Hindenburg and Lutzow would be useful in defending the DEI against Japanese SAGs, (up to and including Kongos) but vulnerable to RIKKOs - to use MacPherson's terminology which seems to be becoming a standard here. Can't see Baden and Bayern as being more useful than the 'R' class.
But of course any second Great War would be very diifferny from OTL and ditto any equivalent of the London Naval treaty. The Dutch might be able to replace all four with Treaty fast BBs by 1940.
Looking ahead to the 1930s, modernised Hindenburg and Lutzow would be useful in defending the DEI against Japanese SAGs, (up to and including Kongos) but vulnerable to RIKKOs - to use MacPherson's terminology which seems to be becoming a standard here. Can't see Baden and Bayern as being more useful than the 'R' class.
But of course any second Great War would be very diifferny from OTL and ditto any equivalent of the London Naval treaty. The Dutch might be able to replace all four with Treaty fast BBs by 1940.
I look forward to how this will resolve itself - I can't imagine that all the naval personnel are ardent socialists...
To be fair the RN would have had a much easier life if an ASB had given them all 6 members of the Alaska class with their single rudder and poor tds fixed by said ASB when WWII kicked off . And it's not like the USN didn't have more awesome variants of the Alaska designs available like the one which would have made an oversized Atlanta
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Derek Pullem
Donor
Don't think the distribution has been done yet.
So the Germans are down 12 dreadnoughts - by my calculations that leaves them with 8 old ships from the Nassau and Helgoland classes and 2-3 older and smaller battlecruisers. that is more than enough to lock up the Baltic in the short term. The interesting thing will be how far they have progressed on the remaining Mackensens (3) Ersatz Yorck (3) and Baden (2). They may all be napkinwaffe at the moment but they were planned. That would be a reasonable replacement force for the older ships if they ever get to finish them.
Yeah, an upgraded shell and an old, under armored «battleship» that hit at close range a modern and proper battleship that, as you have said, is designed to resist a bigger shell.
And with all that, Washington was unable to outright sink Kirishima, what did sunk her?, her own crew. And, repeat, the Kongos were a good design for their time, but could have been better, specially with a super refit.
Kirishima having an old hull and poor armor has absolutely nothing to do with the failure of her modern shells to get through South Dakota's armor.
Washington blasted off the entire front third of Kirishima (everything forward of the bridge). Kirishima's crew had basically no chance of saving her regardless of American air action. Washington only broke off her own attack because of the threat of Japanese destroyers. As an aside, the rebuild the Kongos got in the 1930s was easily one of the most extensive attempted for any Great War-era capital ship, comparable in scope to the Italian superdreadnoughts.
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