The big raid seems to be a bold choice for the UK to take, trying to outflank the enemy by the sea makes sense and they've got the pre-dreadnoughts and old cruisers to help do it! But it does sound like everyone's pretty much punch drunk, swaying, staggering on their feet. The Yanks have finally turned up (late as usual) but I think that before large numbers of them arrive to be decisive, the War will come to a halt through a case of mutual exhaustion in the Ente and Central powers.
Dread Nought but the Fury of the Seas
- Thread starter sts-200
- Start date
Yes, those are the two major obvious ones.
Definitely paratroops and Cruise missiles (although both had been thought of by 1918 - but were never tried).
huff duff - They had direction-finding in the Great War
Ballistic missiles - Yes, but they had very long-range guns.
Guided missiles - They had these (OK I'm stretching the definition of 'missile' very slightly)
Rocket propelled planes - Yes (but is this a practical weapon???) - Edit: Yes, RATO units.
Air independent propulsion - No, sub propulsion was much the same in both wars. The RN had subs with electroboot speed by 1918.
Yes, that's a good one (although they had rifle grenades, which served some of the same purposes).
There's another major one; although not technically a weapon, it had a big impact on the second war and the world - the programmable computer.
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It's a risk, but it might hurt the U-boat campaign, or maybe even drive the Germans out of Belgium (or some of it).
On the other hand, Britain in particular has resources to spare relative to OTL, as they're not fighting the Turks. They've taken different loses in a botched Adriatic landing, but with no Middle East campaign, they're still ahead.
Both important differences - an extra ship is an extra ship, and the timing is a boost to morale at an important moment.
Although no-one's going to take absurd risks, the Grand Fleet can now afford to detach or even lose ships.
SsgtC
Banned
Is the RN thinking of using the German's strategy against them? Send in the battlecruisers on a raid to try and draw the HSF out while the GF is waiting and ready to rumble for Round 2?
Not worth it for the Grand Fleet. Whilst the HSF is in port they are winning. Conducting raids only puts valuable ships in positions where they are very vulnerable to mines and subs. if the GF looses some ships even for a few moths to repair work it gives the HSF an opening.
So Operation Hush is implemented. Now is it going to be an Anzio, Dieppe, or a Gallipoli?
Walther cycle peroxide fueled subs. Weren't of much use, but neither were several of the other Nazi wunderwaffen. Rocket planes, v-2 (the ballistic missile on my list).
Deleted member 94680
Many of those WWII “new inventions” wouldn’t have been missed if they hadn’t been brought into use or changed the course of the War if they were missing.
The key is the front line operational use of them in combat that proved the technologies. War speeds advancement.
No.
It's more a question of being more confident of denying the Germans the ability to contest areas of the sea that they did previously (i.e. some southern bits of the North Sea). It might also free up a few 'second-rate' units for other duties.
They know to avoid the most basic mistakes of Gallipoli-type operations (TTL an analogue happened in the Adriatic), but not every new plan is a good one.
There might be elements of all three showing up in due course...
Paratroops were being theorized -- Churchill and Mitchell both proposed airborne assaults in 1917-1918 -- and the Italians had experimented with dropping individual operatives from aircraft.
The Burden of Neutrality
The Burden of Neutrality
All nations want peace, but they want a peace that suits them – Admiral Fisher
The Dutch had remained steadfastly neutral through the war so far, despite provocations by both sides. However, the entry of the USA into the war affected their position; they could no longer act as a conduit for goods between any pro-German merchant in the USA and Germany itself. There were still other sources for such trade, as nominally they still had access to world markets, but with America now in the war, the British immediately acted to raise the intensity of inspections on Dutch shipping. Any suspiciously large quantities of food, fuel or raw materials were stopped, unless it could be proven that they were not destined for Germany. British Intelligence had not been idle in the Netherlands, and goods for ‘blacklisted’ Dutch firms were usually confiscated, although financial compensation was offered.
In short order, the leak in the blockade was sealed.
After the American declaration of war, the Dutch government therefore felt vulnerable. Their entire trade with the world and their colonies in the Indies was subject to Allied goodwill, while commerce on the continent offered declining possibilities, as the German economy visibly suffered the effects of both war and blockade.
It had always been prudent for the Dutch to ignore any minor abuses of their territory or neutrality. With respect to the Allies, that argument had now become much stronger, and that was a vital factor in the events of mid-July.
-o-
In the early hours of the 17th July, destroyers of the Dover Patrol took up positions to support Motor Launches laying smoke floats. Further offshore, the battlecruisers New Zealand, Invincible and Indefatigable opened fire, supported by the new 15” Monitors Roberts and Erebus and a dozen smaller vessels that could approach the coast.
The bombardments were cover for four converted Naval Defence Act cruisers, a set of hastily requisitioned passenger ferries and small steamers and a hoard of Motor Launches and Coastal Motor Boats. The cruiser HMS Iphigenia led the attack, approaching the end of the huge, curved Mole at Zeebrugge along a course that had been marked moments earlier by two CMBs dropping calcium flares.
Originally built as a dock for cargo ships and as a defence against the ever-changing sandbanks off the Belgian coast, the Germans had fortified the Mole in 1915, placing six 4.1” or 3.4” guns along the extended wave-break at the end. Three 5.9” guns were mounted on the end of the Mole itself, dominating the harbour and the coastline to the east.
Masked by thick Brock smoke until she was very close in, Iphigenia’s approach avoided the arcs of fire of most of these guns until the last minute, but as she rounded the end of the Mole she came directly under the barrels of the 5.9” guns. Her two small pom-pom cannons and two of her remaining 6” had been in action since she emerged from the smoke, but now at a range of no more than 150 yards she let loose her most dreadful weapons; a pair of high-powered flamethrowers that drenched the 5.9” guns and the Mole extension positions in fire in just a few seconds. Charges exploded in the heat, as men hurled themselves in the sea to escape the flames. The heavy German batteries on the coast took some time to understand that Iphegenia was a threat, and she was able to move along the Mole, burning the sheds that housed a garrison of over 500 German troops.
For the British, the plan’s timing was holding up well; just as the threat from the Mole guns was largely eliminated, a converted Irish Sea ferry approached the seaward side of the Mole and deployed a series of gangways onto the parapet at the top, allowing 400 Royal Marines to charge onto the Mole and advance to suppress any remaining guns and secure the vast concrete dock against the inevitable German counterattack.
Meanwhile, the other converted cruisers emerged from the smoke and headed into the lee of the Mole and the entrance to the ship canal leading to Bruges, while other steamers went for the entrance to the Leopold Canal a mile or so further east. By now, the Germans were fully on alert and the later ships entered to a blaze of gunfire from the shore, to which they responded with everything from heavy machine-guns to their remaining 6”. Despite the German fire, six ships made it to either the canal entrances or the breakwaters that protected them and disgorged their cargo of nearly 4,000 Marines and Infantrymen. The Thetis was not so lucky, as she was wrecked by 21-cm shells from the Goeben battery during her approach and was beached just a hundred yards offshore. She was an obvious target for every German gunner, and casualties among her crew and the landing party she carried soon became horrific.
Nevertheless, with support from ships offshore, the British and a token contingent of Belgian troops pushed towards the town and spread out to try to take German batteries from the rear. Some of these assaults succeeded and others did not, leaving several heavy German guns still operational as the first wave of reinforcements arrived at dawn.
Covered by fire from Monitors and destroyers, a wave of larger X-lighters and more conventional light craft came into the beaches and breakwaters. The German defences had yet to be fully overcome, and the wire entanglements in the dunes and around the bunkers prevented many of these men from moving inshore. However, the weight of numbers told, and the German positions were cut off. By midday, many had run out of ammunition, and all were filled with wounded, exhausted men. During the afternoon, the surviving batteries began to fall or to surrender, allowing the Allied troops to begin to push inland.
By the evening, the coast inshore of the Mole and half the town of Zeebrugge were in British hands.
-o-
A few miles further east, another battle had begun at 4.20am as the USS South Carolina, the Michigan and nine pre-dreadnoughts of the 3rd Battle Squadron opened fire with their 9.2” and 12” guns. The Royal Marine landings they covered were intended to knock out the Knokke batteries of 15” and 11” guns and to secure the flank of the Zeebrugge beachhead. The eastern flank of the Knokke landings themselves was secured by the boarder with neutral Holland.
With no mole and limited possibilities for outflanking the batteries from behind, it had to be a near-head-on beach assault. The first wave included a series of landing vessels armed with mortar-like projectors, each firing a shell laden with explosives, Phosgene or a new agent; Mustard Gas, which would be carried inshore by the prevailing winds.
Despite the ferocity of the attack, the troops soon became bogged down in the German beach defences, where wire and the surviving machine-gunners took as heavy a toll as they would anywhere on the Western Front. The effects of gas hindered both sides, and only a few of the fortified heavy gun positions were taken or disabled before dawn. Further attacks during the day produced few results, and losses grew as reinforcements were more easily targeted by the surviving German guns while the slow-moving lighters approached the beaches.
Having fired more than 4,000 heavy shells overnight, the 3rd Battle Squadron returned to Britain and was replaced by four older ships as dawn broke. During the morning, the battleship HMS Glory suffered an explosion after coming under accurate fire from 11” or 12” shells. She sank in under five minutes, with the loss of 558 of her crew. Later in the day the London had to withdraw, heavily on fire, while other vessels of the bombardment force also suffered damage.
Nevertheless, the German defenders were already tired after a day on alert and a night in battle, and they became increasingly occupied in their own defence as the day wore on. They were unable to interfere with the action taking place at Zeebrugge, while a smaller Allied attack elsewhere meant that no reinforcements would reach Knokke that day. By the evening, the last batteries were running low on ammunition and were effectively besieged.
Despite heavy losses during the assault, the British had another toehold on the Belgian coast.
All nations want peace, but they want a peace that suits them – Admiral Fisher
The Dutch had remained steadfastly neutral through the war so far, despite provocations by both sides. However, the entry of the USA into the war affected their position; they could no longer act as a conduit for goods between any pro-German merchant in the USA and Germany itself. There were still other sources for such trade, as nominally they still had access to world markets, but with America now in the war, the British immediately acted to raise the intensity of inspections on Dutch shipping. Any suspiciously large quantities of food, fuel or raw materials were stopped, unless it could be proven that they were not destined for Germany. British Intelligence had not been idle in the Netherlands, and goods for ‘blacklisted’ Dutch firms were usually confiscated, although financial compensation was offered.
In short order, the leak in the blockade was sealed.
After the American declaration of war, the Dutch government therefore felt vulnerable. Their entire trade with the world and their colonies in the Indies was subject to Allied goodwill, while commerce on the continent offered declining possibilities, as the German economy visibly suffered the effects of both war and blockade.
It had always been prudent for the Dutch to ignore any minor abuses of their territory or neutrality. With respect to the Allies, that argument had now become much stronger, and that was a vital factor in the events of mid-July.
-o-
In the early hours of the 17th July, destroyers of the Dover Patrol took up positions to support Motor Launches laying smoke floats. Further offshore, the battlecruisers New Zealand, Invincible and Indefatigable opened fire, supported by the new 15” Monitors Roberts and Erebus and a dozen smaller vessels that could approach the coast.
The bombardments were cover for four converted Naval Defence Act cruisers, a set of hastily requisitioned passenger ferries and small steamers and a hoard of Motor Launches and Coastal Motor Boats. The cruiser HMS Iphigenia led the attack, approaching the end of the huge, curved Mole at Zeebrugge along a course that had been marked moments earlier by two CMBs dropping calcium flares.
Originally built as a dock for cargo ships and as a defence against the ever-changing sandbanks off the Belgian coast, the Germans had fortified the Mole in 1915, placing six 4.1” or 3.4” guns along the extended wave-break at the end. Three 5.9” guns were mounted on the end of the Mole itself, dominating the harbour and the coastline to the east.
Masked by thick Brock smoke until she was very close in, Iphigenia’s approach avoided the arcs of fire of most of these guns until the last minute, but as she rounded the end of the Mole she came directly under the barrels of the 5.9” guns. Her two small pom-pom cannons and two of her remaining 6” had been in action since she emerged from the smoke, but now at a range of no more than 150 yards she let loose her most dreadful weapons; a pair of high-powered flamethrowers that drenched the 5.9” guns and the Mole extension positions in fire in just a few seconds. Charges exploded in the heat, as men hurled themselves in the sea to escape the flames. The heavy German batteries on the coast took some time to understand that Iphegenia was a threat, and she was able to move along the Mole, burning the sheds that housed a garrison of over 500 German troops.
For the British, the plan’s timing was holding up well; just as the threat from the Mole guns was largely eliminated, a converted Irish Sea ferry approached the seaward side of the Mole and deployed a series of gangways onto the parapet at the top, allowing 400 Royal Marines to charge onto the Mole and advance to suppress any remaining guns and secure the vast concrete dock against the inevitable German counterattack.
Meanwhile, the other converted cruisers emerged from the smoke and headed into the lee of the Mole and the entrance to the ship canal leading to Bruges, while other steamers went for the entrance to the Leopold Canal a mile or so further east. By now, the Germans were fully on alert and the later ships entered to a blaze of gunfire from the shore, to which they responded with everything from heavy machine-guns to their remaining 6”. Despite the German fire, six ships made it to either the canal entrances or the breakwaters that protected them and disgorged their cargo of nearly 4,000 Marines and Infantrymen. The Thetis was not so lucky, as she was wrecked by 21-cm shells from the Goeben battery during her approach and was beached just a hundred yards offshore. She was an obvious target for every German gunner, and casualties among her crew and the landing party she carried soon became horrific.
Nevertheless, with support from ships offshore, the British and a token contingent of Belgian troops pushed towards the town and spread out to try to take German batteries from the rear. Some of these assaults succeeded and others did not, leaving several heavy German guns still operational as the first wave of reinforcements arrived at dawn.
Covered by fire from Monitors and destroyers, a wave of larger X-lighters and more conventional light craft came into the beaches and breakwaters. The German defences had yet to be fully overcome, and the wire entanglements in the dunes and around the bunkers prevented many of these men from moving inshore. However, the weight of numbers told, and the German positions were cut off. By midday, many had run out of ammunition, and all were filled with wounded, exhausted men. During the afternoon, the surviving batteries began to fall or to surrender, allowing the Allied troops to begin to push inland.
By the evening, the coast inshore of the Mole and half the town of Zeebrugge were in British hands.
-o-
A few miles further east, another battle had begun at 4.20am as the USS South Carolina, the Michigan and nine pre-dreadnoughts of the 3rd Battle Squadron opened fire with their 9.2” and 12” guns. The Royal Marine landings they covered were intended to knock out the Knokke batteries of 15” and 11” guns and to secure the flank of the Zeebrugge beachhead. The eastern flank of the Knokke landings themselves was secured by the boarder with neutral Holland.
With no mole and limited possibilities for outflanking the batteries from behind, it had to be a near-head-on beach assault. The first wave included a series of landing vessels armed with mortar-like projectors, each firing a shell laden with explosives, Phosgene or a new agent; Mustard Gas, which would be carried inshore by the prevailing winds.
Despite the ferocity of the attack, the troops soon became bogged down in the German beach defences, where wire and the surviving machine-gunners took as heavy a toll as they would anywhere on the Western Front. The effects of gas hindered both sides, and only a few of the fortified heavy gun positions were taken or disabled before dawn. Further attacks during the day produced few results, and losses grew as reinforcements were more easily targeted by the surviving German guns while the slow-moving lighters approached the beaches.
Having fired more than 4,000 heavy shells overnight, the 3rd Battle Squadron returned to Britain and was replaced by four older ships as dawn broke. During the morning, the battleship HMS Glory suffered an explosion after coming under accurate fire from 11” or 12” shells. She sank in under five minutes, with the loss of 558 of her crew. Later in the day the London had to withdraw, heavily on fire, while other vessels of the bombardment force also suffered damage.
Nevertheless, the German defenders were already tired after a day on alert and a night in battle, and they became increasingly occupied in their own defence as the day wore on. They were unable to interfere with the action taking place at Zeebrugge, while a smaller Allied attack elsewhere meant that no reinforcements would reach Knokke that day. By the evening, the last batteries were running low on ammunition and were effectively besieged.
Despite heavy losses during the assault, the British had another toehold on the Belgian coast.
Logan, don't copy the whole thing and then comment with basically "K." Just reply as normal as there's no need to quote the whole thing to give your approval.
That aside, this is a great update, the Zebrugge raid is a far far larger undertaking, and although it seems to be going slowly, this is to be expected as there's little in the way of engieering equipment developed at the time that could be used by men on the ground.
That aside, this is a great update, the Zebrugge raid is a far far larger undertaking, and although it seems to be going slowly, this is to be expected as there's little in the way of engieering equipment developed at the time that could be used by men on the ground.
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What I try to do is quote the header and first sentences. That shows clearly what I'm responding to, but isn't a massive wall of text.
SsgtC
Banned
Do you have a source for the flamethrower on the cruiser? Because that seems to be really farfetched tbh. Not to mention how thoroughly obsolete she was. As built, she only mounted 2x6" guns. And they had been removed long before WWI even began. By this time, she was a barely armed minelayer, not a cruiser.
Deleted member 94680
Two Morriss static flamethrowers mounted in HMS Vindictive (1897) and several Hay portable flamethrowers were deployed by the Royal Navy during the Zeebrugge Raid on 23 April 1918. A British newspaper report of the action referred to the British flamethrowers only as flammenwerfer, using the German word.
From the wiki page on Flamethrower
The Livens, Large Gallery Flame Projector was used on the Western Front in 1916 and could throw a jet of burning fuel around 100yards. this was a transportable weapon that broke down into sections to be emplaced in a tunnel. a ship borne system could be larger and thereby throw more fuel and flames further. I suggest watching episode 42 of 'Time Team' to see a reconstruction of the effectiveness of this device.
livens projector in use!
This picture shows the crew and projector assembly for scale
livens projector in use!
This picture shows the crew and projector assembly for scale
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