IIRC rebuilding the turrets was one of the more expensive parts of the QE refits.

Vanguards turrets were not as extensively refitted - instead of swapping the powder room with the shell room the powder was stored elsewhere lower in the ship and the space in the turret (below the turret?? Not sure what the correct terminology is)

It was only the first draught of that joke...
... and, oh, alright then, I'll oblige ... Unnnghhhhh!!!:rolleyes:


Much further and I believe they would be almost totally rebuilding the turrets - even 30-degrees required shifting the guns forward, deepening the wells, and with longer shells 30-deg took them out to 32,000 yards.

Is it worth going further than 32,000 yards?

The longest at sea engagements (where hits were made) turned out to be about 26,000 yards (Warspite verse Giulio Cesare and Scharnhorst verses Glorious).

I am not sure how high above sea level the directors were mounted but lets say that is 150 feet (I was not able to find out how high up the Rebuilt Warspites Main director was mounted???) that makes the Horizon 15 miles/24KMs/26,400 yards?

So I suspect that while observation aircraft could correct fall of shot etc beyond the horizon and later radar might be able to 'see' further - realistically the ships directors could only correct shots out to the horizon so 32,000 Yards is probably more than good enough.
 
I believe so, yes, and it required extensive use of gun pits and plant that was in short supply.

There was at the time 18 large gun pits in the UK capable of building / rebuilding the battleship turrets of the day in the 1910s and 1920s

9 of those were 'concreted over' during the very early 30s (not sure of the exact date) - that's when it became a problem as only 9 large gun pits remained for the building of the Quad (10 units) and double (5 units) 14" turrets of the KGVs, and the rebuilt to Mk1N standard twin 15"s of the 3 rebuilt QEs and Renown and later slightly lesser rebuild for Vanguard (19 units).
 
Agreed Cryhavoc, going to 32,000 yards whilst 'nice' is not much use as thats over the horizon shooting and you'd need a spotter for that. So really 26 - 28k would be about what you'd need as a max as any hits at that range are more luck than skill when all factors are considered.
 
Btw if those refits are later in the war or post war than I'd suggest the block of flats towers used by the Nelson and Rodney otl instead of the towers you're using now.

Just saying.
 
...
Is it worth going further than 32,000 yards?
Not in my view, or the view of the sane parts of any inter-war navy.
While there was a lot of fanciful nonsense about air spotting, no-one expect to be able to rely on it. Certainly both the US and Japan practiced firing at 32,000+ yards, but the expectation of hits was very low, the results were often more theoretical than actual, and it was dependent on a glassy-smooth day with the enemy not bothering to shoot down the spotter plane.

For me, it's best illustrated by the fact that all navies regarded 'decisive range' as somewhere between 15-21,000 yards even in the late 30s - with the British being at the short end of that range and the Japanese/US at the longer end.

The longest at sea engagements (where hits were made) turned out to be about 26,000 yards (Warspite verse Giulio Cesare and Scharnhorst verses Glorious).

I am not sure how high above sea level the directors were mounted but lets say that is 150 feet (I was not able to find out how high up the Rebuilt Warspites Main director was mounted???) that makes the Horizon 15 miles/24KMs/26,400 yards?

So I suspect that while observation aircraft could correct fall of shot etc beyond the horizon and later radar might be able to 'see' further - realistically the ships directors could only correct shots out to the horizon so 32,000 Yards is probably more than good enough.

Most directors and spotting tops will be lower than that; 80-120'. I don't immediately have a scale diag of Warspite, but on a 1936 KGV, the DCT was only at about 80'.
As you say, spotting is more difficult than rangefinding (and is a key part of the process). It wasn't until late in the war that radar really out-ranged visual spotting, although obviously it had massive benefits in low visibility.
 
Btw if those refits are later in the war or post war than I'd suggest the block of flats towers used by the Nelson and Rodney otl instead of the towers you're using now.

Just saying.

The Queens Anne Mansion style super structure as it was called

Useful and large working space outside of the armored citadel and therefore not needing to be armored and not imposing a great amount of stabilization issues to the design - with only the fighting 'tops' and electric and communication trunking having any armor.

Worked well for the NelRod and rebuilt Queens and Renown
 
Btw if those refits are later in the war or post war than I'd suggest the block of flats towers used by the Nelson and Rodney otl instead of the towers you're using now.

Just saying.
Absolutely, bridge design improved greatly following war experience, and with the need for effective secondary and HA directors, plots and searchlights.

Of course, the optimum inter-war refit for HMS Royal William:

1) Grind off name lettering at stern
2) Remove bell
3) Build Lion-class battleship
4) Attach name and bell
 
Not in my view, or the view of the sane parts of any inter-war navy.
While there was a lot of fanciful nonsense about air spotting, no-one expect to be able to rely on it. Certainly both the US and Japan practiced firing at 32,000+ yards, but the expectation of hits was very low, the results were often more theoretical than actual, and it was dependent on a glassy-smooth day with the enemy not bothering to shoot down the spotter plane.

For me, it's best illustrated by the fact that all navies regarded 'decisive range' as somewhere between 15-21,000 yards even in the late 30s - with the British being at the short end of that range and the Japanese/US at the longer end.



Most directors and spotting tops will be lower than that; 80-120'. I don't immediately have a scale diag of Warspite, but on a 1936 KGV, the DCT was only at about 80'.
As you say, spotting is more difficult than rangefinding (and is a key part of the process). It wasn't until late in the war that radar really out-ranged visual spotting, although obviously it had massive benefits in low visibility.

Which makes those 2 long range hits by Warspite and Scharnhorst all the more impressive as the Horizon from 80' is 11 miles! (120' is 13.4)
 
Which makes those 2 long range hits by Warspite and Scharnhorst all the more impressive as the Horizon from 80' is 11 miles! (120' is 13.4)
It certainly does, but don't forget the enemy ships and the splashes poke up above the horizon, so that isn't your absolute limit of visibility (e.g. from 80' up, you can see something that's 30' above the surface at 28,000 yds, with a line-of-sight that never comes closer than 10' to the sea)
 
It certainly does, but don't forget the enemy ships and the splashes poke up above the horizon, so that isn't your absolute limit of visibility (e.g. from 80' up, you can see something that's 30' above the surface at 28,000 yds, with a line-of-sight that never comes closer than 10' to the sea)

Oh certainly but the ability for the chaps in the Director to 'interpret' said splashes with any real accuracy at said distance even in very good visibility I suspect involved the wearing of Maori grass skirts, reading the hidden messages in freshly used tea leaves and the casting of runes while intoning ancient and forbidden prayers that calls upon the favor of Cthulhu to guide the next salvo.
 
Oh certainly but the ability for the chaps in the Director to 'interpret' said splashes with any real accuracy at said distance even in very good visibility I suspect involved the wearing of Maori grass skirts, reading the hidden messages in freshly used tea leaves and the casting of runes while intoning ancient and forbidden prayers that calls upon the favor of Cthulhu to guide the next salvo.

At least the British ships had ready access to used tea leaves.
 
Stavanger 3 – Hit First, Hit Hard!
Stavanger 3 – Hit First, Hit Hard!

At 4.32, the battle of Stavanger was more than an hour old. The two battlecruiser squadrons had been firing at each other on-and-off for nearly half an hour, but very little damage had been done. A German cruiser had been crippled, and a few near misses had sent splinters and splashes over various ships, but the long ranges and rapidly changing courses had not made for accurate gunnery.

Admiral Beatty knew he might not have long to fight Hipper’s ships before they ran into the main body of their fleet; but could it be as much as two hours? Or as little as half an hour?
All he could be certain of was that his scouts ahead and to starboard had yet to sight any other enemy ships. Now was the time to close to decisive range with the German Scouting Group. He ordered a four-point turn to port, taking his squadron into the enemy's path. By 4.40, ranges had fallen to under 17,000 yards and he ordered a four-point turn to starboard, in line, bringing the fleet back onto a gently converging course with the enemy. A mile or so astern of the rest, Indefatigable ‘cut the corner’, temporarily stopping her from falling further astern. At 4.41, she too entered range, and opened fire on the rearmost German battlecruiser.
Six German ships were now engaging six British, but there was a significant British advantage in terms of weight of broadside, slightly counteracted by the Germans' ability to fire salvos more quickly.

In the next few minutes, both sides rapidly found the range, as British plots converged, and the instincts of the German range-takers quickly showed their worth. An early hit by Lion exploded on Lutzow's belt under A-turret, but it caused little damage. Queen Mary and Panther achieved several straddles, but their targets, the Derfflinger and Seydlitz were lucky to avoid any hits, while Princess Royal's gunnery was completely thrown off by the change of course, and she didn't come close to hitting Moltke for some time. At the rear of the British line, the Repulse had had no time to work with the fleet, and her Captain though it best to engage the rear of the German line, as she was last in the British line. Some way astern, the Indefatigable was also firing at the rearmost German ship, and so the Von der Tann had to endure the fire of two ships, while the next ship ahead, the Goeben, sailed on unmolested. Worse, this led to confusion as each of the British ships corrected for the other’s salvoes. Indefatigable's experienced crew noticed it first, but it was some time before the problem was noticed by Repulse's spotters, most of whom had joined from other ships and training units just two weeks earlier. Repulse had only ever conducted a single gunnery practice, and in those opening minutes, her fire-control and loading procedures were chaotic, at best.

Meanwhile, the Germans made their presence felt as Lion was hit aft. The deck armour kept splinters out of the engine rooms, but the 4" gun battery was wrecked. Nevertheless, the lessons of the fires at Dogger Bank had been learned, and damage control teams soon had the hoses playing on them, while piles of soaking wet fire-suppression blankets sealed off sources of draught and smoke.

What happened at 4.51 could perhaps have been predicted, and in later years, some claimed to have done so. A minute earlier, Queen Mary's B-turret had been hit by a shell which fortunately failed to explode, although it sent debris flying into the interior. Next, observers on Panther directly astern clearly saw a hit aft, underneath X-turret. Just seconds later, the stern of the Queen Mary erupted in a burst of yellow flame, leaving a column of grey-black smoke.

In Queen Mary’s Q-turret, Petty Officer Arthur Giles sat in command of the right-hand gun. His gun crew had closed up for action almost two hours earlier, and at 3.30 the guns had been loaded. Giles had kept an eye on his men, who’d been inclined to rush the loading sequence as they tensed themselves for the action ahead. He’d told them to steady themselves, just as they’d all trained for, and through the intermittent firing as the ship turned first to port, then made a big turn to starboard, his crew had performed well.
Then they were in action for real, firing in steady salvoes and hearing crackles and booms of the enemy’s shells exploding in reply. Just after 4.40, the rammers of both guns failed, stuck mid-way between the in and out positions. Giles’ over-keen No.3 had opened the breech too quickly, and caught the rammer head a whack as the gun was still running out.
Giles nipped out of his seat and grabbed a pinch-bar from the rack at the edge of the turret. Heaving the solid steel rod under the equally solid steel of the rammer head, he could see it was just slightly out of line. He pushed down and the links flexed, before he grabbed onto a pipe above to steady himself while he jumped on the bar. The whole thing flexed nicely, and a second look showed it to be back in line, so he stopped and pushed the lever to ‘Run out’ the rammer. It smoothly wound itself out into the breech. He ran it in and out a few times, and the machine was working properly again. They’d missed two salvos, but the gun was back in action and they wouldn’t have to resort to the slow and exhausting process of manual loading.

A voice from below called up, ‘Petty Officer Giles, can you see what we’re up against’.
Since the action began, they’d been on director firing and Giles hadn’t had the need or the time to look through his periscope. He had been too busy listening and following the rhythm of the loading or following the pointers to look out at the enemy. Now, however, he bent forward to the eyepiece and saw a line of German ships through the haze. Between them were what looked like a small fleet of destroyers, although he didn’t have time to count them.
‘There’s a few big German ships and a couple’a destroyers’, he shouted back, understating the number of ships he saw so as not to alarm his men, ‘looks like we’re shooting at the Derfflinger maybe, giv’in ‘em back what they did to Scarborough.’
There was a cheer from below, but it was cut short by the thunder of the guns.
A few seconds later, the next shell was being rammed home when he saw a white flash and a sparkle of debris from the ship in his sights. ‘We’ve hit her lads!’, he shouted, ‘Keep it steady’.

Giles felt the turret turn a little, presumably as the Gunnery Officer in the foretop trained his sights on a new target, then there was a thump from within the ship. The whole turret vibrated and was then still for a moment. Then the lights went out.
‘Torches there!’, he yelled through the ongoing rumble.
There was another lurch and he grabbed hold of a roped strap above his head. He was glad he did as the turret lurched upwards, or so he thought, and he heard the yell of a man falling down on the other side, under the guns. The dim emergency lights came on, and suddenly there was quiet. The dust that had been shaken up started to settle, and he glanced at the gauges on the right bulkhead.
‘No hydraulic pressure on right gun’, he shouted to Lieutenant Wells, the Turret Officer. He looked through his scope again, then added, ‘Range obscured. There’s something blocking the sight.’
‘What’s happened Gilesy?’, asked his gun's No.2.
Giles wasn’t sure, and asked Lieutenant Wells, ‘What do you think, Sir’
‘God knows, Giles’, came the reply, ‘we’re finished in here though’.
Giles turned back and for the first time saw that the breech of the left gun was poking up towards the roof of the turret, depressed to minimum. Through the sudden quiet, there was a distant roaring, rumbling sort of a noise from below.
‘Can you see if the four-inch are still firing?’, asked Lt. Wells.
Giles poked his head out of his sighting slot at the top of the turret and looked to his left, towards the after 4” battery. He was horrified at what he saw and practically fell back into the turret with shock.
‘The mainmast’s down Sir, over the port side. Dunno about the four-inch battery, but there’s a lott’a smoke.’
‘Well … Giles, I think we ought to get them out. Maybe we can help with damage…’
The Lieutenant’s voice trailed off, as they both noticed simultaneously that the ship now had a fair list to port. The motion had changed too, she wasn’t riding the sea, she was wallowing.
‘Get them out Arthur!’, called out the Lieutenant as they both felt the list increasing.
‘Clear the turret’, shouted Giles, and yelled down to the working chamber.
He asked A/B Fredricks, who was coming up from the chamber below, ‘Is the order passed to the magazine?’
‘No use there’, replied Fredricks glumly, ‘water’s coming up the hoist. They must have bought it.’
‘Come on’, said Giles, pulling Fredricks towards the cabinet at the back of the turret, ‘Out you go Lad.’
Giles knew he was the last man who would be leaving the turret as he followed Fredricks and Lt. Wells out of the top hatch. ‘All clear Sir’, he confirmed when the Lieutenant poked his head back into the turret. They climbed down the ladder at the side and had to jump the last few feet to the sharply sloping deck. It was soaking wet, and the No.4 of the left gun missed his footing and slid down, hitting the water which Giles was surprised to see was already coming over the scuppers. It was just too shallow to slow his fall though, and the man crashed into the rail. He slumped down, either stunned or perhaps even dead, before the ship lurched again and a wave carried his body over the rail.

There were a couple of dozen men either at the rail or clinging to the side of the barbette. Giles saw the guns of the 4” battery were all askew, and the deck beyond sloping down into the sea.
‘Well lads, who’s for a swim?’, he asked with a mock cheeriness to the assembled crowd.
‘F… off’, was the loudest of the replies, ‘she’s still afloat.’

She was still afloat, but some sixth sense told Giles to follow the spirit of his shipmate’s suggestion. Lowering himself down on a loose line, he entered the water slowly, or as slowly as the urgency driven by his sense of fear permitted. There was plenty of floating debris aft, and he swam for it. A few moments later, he didn’t know what caused him to go under, probably a wave, but at that moment there was a thunderous bang in the water all around him, and even under the sea he saw the brilliant flash of an explosion from behind him. Objects began to splash into the water above his head, and he struggled to stay under, instinctive knowing that the debris-filled air would be more deadly than the sea. Then he felt his lungs start to burn, and he struggled even more vigorously to reach the surface. He burst above the sea, propelling himself almost half out of the water before crashing back and finding himself in a grey, acidic-tasting mist. He floated, trying to clear his eyes, and then shouted around.
There was no reply, and he looked around for something to hang onto. Quite what happened next, he was never able to recall, but he awoke lying on a canvas stretcher, with someone bending over him and speaking in English.
 
Yeah somehow I really doubt the RN doesn't complete all the admirals in this timeline,they're going to have to replace at least 3 BCs and counting let's just hope Repulse(the only BC present at this battle which will be useful in WW2) survives in a state that makes her not a total constructive loss.
 
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The Queen Mary seems to suffer a rather cursed existance and its a shame as she was OTL one of the best gunnery ships in the BFC if not the fleet by all accounts. It appears that she didn't explode, but the X turret magazine suffered a deflagration which broke the ship in half. Bad news for the RN as this is one of their more armoured battlecruisers.
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
Oh certainly but the ability for the chaps in the Director to 'interpret' said splashes with any real accuracy at said distance even in very good visibility I suspect involved the wearing of Maori grass skirts, reading the hidden messages in freshly used tea leaves and the casting of runes while intoning ancient and forbidden prayers that calls upon the favor of Cthulhu to guide the next salvo.

Point of Order! Maori didn't use missile weapons for combat, so grass skirt of no help in long-range gunnery! ;)
 
The Queen Mary seems to suffer a rather cursed existance and its a shame as she was OTL one of the best gunnery ships in the BFC if not the fleet by all accounts. It appears that she didn't explode, but the X turret magazine suffered a deflagration which broke the ship in half. Bad news for the RN as this is one of their more armoured battlecruisers.
That's where it becomes a little difficult to stick to a purely 'gamed' battle, which I am in this case.
If I were writing it simply 'as I wanted', I wouldn't sink Queen Mary. A very handsome ship indeed, but chance dictated that the shell hit, and that it worked.
As you point out, she didn't sink in the same way as in reality (where her forward magazines exploded), but we'll be coming back to that (much) later.

In reality, she was one of the few fitted with the equipment for very long range firing prior to Jutland. She also had a Pollen 'Argo clock' (fire control computer), unlike the rest which had Dreyer tables. In 1916, there wasn't actually that much practical difference between the results of the two, but post-war all new fire control systems would be based on Pollen's ideas.
Again, the story will come back to some of that in due course.
 
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