An Earthquake in Design
An Earthquake in Design

In Japan, the Diet had mixed feelings about Washington. It cemented Japan's place at the table; but it was next to the great powers, not necessarily as one of them. The limit of 465,000 tons preserved some of the best of the new ships already under construction, while the ‘8-8’ program was already known to be ruinously expensive. The two ‘Tosa’ class battleships were completed in 1922, but a modest slowdown in pace and rate of expenditure meant that Amagi and Akagi did not enter service until 1923.
Completion of these four would take the IJN up to 462,000 tons.

With the ships still under construction, the Japanese Naval Staff decided to wait and see what Britain and America laid down, believing that their designers could come up with something better.

By late 1922, they had done, and in December that year the battleships Kii and Owari were laid down. As required by treaty, the other powers were informed that the ships were 795’ long, with 101’ beam and would have a draught of 27’ at a Standard Displacement of 36,000 tons.
Such dimensions provoked some suspicion; they were only 31’ shorter than the 41,500-ton ‘Amagis’, although draught was quoted as being less.
Both British and American designers suspected that the Amagis were over their quoted weights. In fact, Amagi herself had come out at 42,250 tons, but the Japanese were not obliged to inform anyone of this, as the figure of 41,500 tons was written into the Treaty as ‘normal’ displacement.

In 1922, the Japanese had no intention of breaking the Treaty, but had noted that contracting powers were obliged to declare the design displacement when the ships were laid down, and the actual displacement once they were completed. They therefore intended to avoid overtly breaking the 36,000-ton ‘implied maximum’, but if the new ships completed a little heavy, it could always be declared later.

As it turned out, that declaration would come much later. On the 1st September 1923, a severe earthquake struck Tokyo and its surroundings, damaging the hull of the Kii, which lay on a slip at Yokosuka Naval Yard. The quake was a dramatic setback for the entire country, and certainly delayed her naval programme by six months, perhaps as much as a year in some cases. The incomplete hull was scrapped on the slip, and some of the material was later re-used in the construction of a new Kii, which was laid down in February 1924.

The ‘Kii’ class took the machinery and hull of ‘Amagi’ and compacted them slightly by eliminating the mixed-firing arrangements. Three triple 16” turrets would mount the same gun as on earlier ships.
A compact arrangement of the boilers and magazines allowed the main belt to be just 377’ long, with one of the engine rooms situated behind the aft turret, protected by a shallower belt that also ran forwards, totalling 133’ in length. All the belt armour was 300mm thick (usually listed as 12”) and inclined at 12-degrees with the side of the hull. The armour deck moved down a level with the drop in the belt, and was a total of 100mm (3.9”) thick. This was split between an 80mm deck at the top of the belt and a 20mm splinter deck below, except over the engine rooms, where the two came together. Barbettes were 13” thick and there was a 14” conning tower, but the turrets were little better protected than those of ‘Nagato’, with 13” faces and 5” roofs. Battery armour was 6”, with a 2” splinter deck beneath it.

On completion, the ships proved to be over the intended 36,000 tons, and once further reinforcing had been added around the bow and the areas where the side armour stepped down, the ships were about 37,300 tons Standard, and it was this weight than the Japanese declared in 1927 once Kii had been completed. They certainly used the ‘trick’ of declaring part-filled magazines, and the ships’ Full Load was 43,790 tons at the time of completion. Addition of 100mm and 12.7mm anti-aircraft guns (as permitted by the ‘3000-ton rule’) soon added to this figure, and the ships were undoubtedly over 45,000 tons Full Load within a few years of their completion.

That weight and size brought with it considerable speed. On trials in 1926, Owari achieved 30.88 knots with 139,200shp, while at 40,470 tons. In service, they were usually regarded as good for 29 knots, and were quite capable of keeping up with the ‘Amagis’.

Japan Kii2.png

Owari as completed​

Four ‘Myoko’ class cruisers were also authorised at the same time as the 'Kii' class, but again the earthquake intervened. The hull of the Myoko had been completed up to the lower deck when the quake struck, damaging the slip itself and twisting the hull. She was re-laid the following year, while the others were delayed due to the national crisis, finally completing in 1927.
Nominally a 10,000-ton design when they were laid down, the Japanese were not obliged to inform their Treaty partners of the new class. However, during construction their weight grew considerably, and they completed at close to 11,500 tons once strengthening beams had been added to the overloaded hulls.
However, Japan was still bound by the Treaty, which stated that the other powers should be informed of the laying-down or the completion of cruisers over 10,000 tons. They therefore informed their fellow signatories that the four ships had completed at 10,750 tons; itself a lie, but sufficiently close to the truth to avoid any future problems.

Meanwhile, both France and Italy were in poor financial shape. Despite French bellicosity at Washington, there was no question of France using her 210,000-ton limit at any time in the next few years. The four battleships of the Courbet class and the three Bretagnes would lead the French Navy for the foreseeable future. Italy was keeping a wary eye to both the East and West, but with a recovery only just established following a post-war boom then slump, there were no plans for any new heavy ships in 1922. Both nations, however, were urgently looking at the possibilities offered by modern cruisers.
 
Did OTL and ATL WWI pass you by? UK kept France in the fight and the US won it. They might not have million men armies right now but they can both raise them and have the all-important finances to support them. And the French army too when it comes down to it. Also they both (the UK especially) can, you know, blockade Europe.
The British turned up to the party in 1914 with a whole 7 divisions, which spent much of the early campaign firing rearguard shots at the Germans before retreating as fast as they could. It was the French, not the British army that saved France on the Marne.
Now in the longer run it was British (and later American) support - in men, money, munitions and the blockade as well - that enabled France to hold out through three years of attrition warfare and made sure it would end in Germany rather than France collapsing from exhaustion.

Now look at it from the perspective of France in the 1920s - how certain are you that the British
a) will fight with you against an aggressive Germany, especially one that has avoided pushing any obvious red buttons like building a fleet to challenge the RN or invading Belgium &
b) will arrive early enough and in enough strength that you can last until finance and blockades start to matter (in 1870 the war started in July and the Prussians were besieging Paris in September) &
c) will tough it out to the end for another three years in the trenches, and not try to cut a deal that sacrifices French interests.

They weren't entirely certain OTL, hence their insistence on the disarmament and occupation clauses at Versaiiles, their building of the Little Entente and their attempts to keep Italy onside even after the rise of Mussolini. TTL they've just watched the British cut a compromise deal rather than holding on for victory.

This would be the same Italy that jumped ship on its alliance commitments because they literally couldn’t afford to fight on the Central Power’s side? That was near-totally dependent on British finance and coal and had to send a begging delegation to America the second the War ended?
I think you've misspelled "opportunistically changed sides when they got a better offer" but the point is taken. But where does that leave France? If Italy is too weak to be of help there's not much hope in Poland or Bohemia or Romania or other second-tier states, so they're left dependent on the British alliance.

Now I don't think the outcome of TTL's WW1 was that bad for France, and I agree with you that the Naval Treaty isn't some terrible humiliation that France cannot be expected to stomach. This isn't OTL's 1919, when a million Italians wanted Wilson's head on a spike after he stiffed them over Fiume. For France, as you say, naval considerations are secondary to securing the eastern frontier, the more worried they are about Germany the more that will be true, and they know that playing hardball over a naval treaty isn't worth it if it means antagonising the British.

But accepting that they need the British means accepting that they will be dancing to London's tune for the forseeable future or at least having their freedom of action limited to what London will put up with. (This applies to internal matters as well - a fascist France really can't count on British support). TTL's France may decide they can live with this, or they may look for another option, even if it's a delusional one.
 
Nominally a 10,000-ton design when they were laid down, the Japanese were not obliged to inform their Treaty partners of the new class. However, during construction their weight grew considerably, and they completed at close to 11,500 tons once strengthening beam

For what I can see and tell, they will be the same design as OTL but a lot earlier, I love it!. But that means that the Aoba's and Furutaka's are already in commission from before the treaty?
 
That weight and size brought with it considerable speed. On trials in 1926, Owari achieved 30.88 knots with 139,200shp, while at 40,470 tons. In service, they were usually regarded as good for 29 knots, and were quite capable of keeping up with the ‘Amagis’.

A small and faster Yamato...
Jesus Christ!
 
Ahh - back to the main theme of the thread, which is battleship porn. And very sexy battleships they are too - thanks for the picture.
I see the Japanese have given up turret farming and gone for the 3x3 A/B/Y layout earlier than OTL . You didn't mention the secondaries - are those 5.5" in casemates? It looks a little cramped amidships and that aft engineroom behind the shallow part of the belt feels like one of those cross-your-fingers bodges that are regretted later, but it's a genuine fast battleship. Not quite the firepower of the latest American design nor the protection of the British but it can walk away from either of them. In fact. it looks like it out-Rodneys Rodney on 2,500 tons less, and that's a high bar to clear.

Question - what have the Japanese retired to fit these in? They'd have to discard 3 ships to get cap space for this pair - and I'd expect them to discard either all 4 Kongos or all 4 Fuso/Ises which would give them space for a third Kii. Unless they have plans for the 14,000-ish tons of cap space left after trading 3 old ships for 2 new....

Given that the Japanese are going for speed, I'd expect the Kongos to be kept and the Fuso/Ises to go - which leaves the slowest ship in the Japanese line the Nagato at 26 knots. The Americans must be wondering how they're meant to force an engagement.

Speaking of the Americans, it's there are no pictures of Montana, but the description makes sense. The 10-guns 4-turrets layout gives her just a but more punch and redundancy than a 3x3 design, protection is solid and sticking to 23 knots fits with the American design philosophy. They've been going for slow, solid and well-armed since South Carolina, and a 4-ship 23 knot "fast" squadron works better with a 21-knot line than a single pair of fast battleships or a couple of repeat Lexingtons.

In fact, I can see an alternate ursine TTL bending everyone's ear with what a pointless waste of money and resources the Lexingtons were. They cost as much as a battleship, both to build and run, they're ludicrous overkill against any actual or prospective cruiser, but with tinfoil armour they can't face even an older BC with any confidence and fighting battleships is right out - so what are they supposed to be for?
 

Deleted member 94680

The British turned up to the party in 1914 with a whole 7 divisions, which spent much of the early campaign firing rearguard shots at the Germans before retreating as fast as they could. It was the French, not the British army that saved France on the Marne.
Now in the longer run it was British (and later American) support - in men, money, munitions and the blockade as well - that enabled France to hold out through three years of attrition warfare and made sure it would end in Germany rather than France collapsing from exhaustion.

6 divisions, but the French new this from at least 1912 onwards and were perfectly happy. Caustic interpretation aside, that’s what I said.

Now look at it from the perspective of France in the 1920s - how certain are you that the British
a) will fight with you against an aggressive Germany, especially one that has avoided pushing any obvious red buttons like building a fleet to challenge the RN or invading Belgium &
b) will arrive early enough and in enough strength that you can last until finance and blockades start to matter (in 1870 the war started in July and the Prussians were besieging Paris in September) &
c) will tough it out to the end for another three years in the trenches, and not try to cut a deal that sacrifices French interests.


All of which can be “firmed up” in an ATL Anglo-French Alliance or Convention. It’s still (always has been) in Britain’s interests not to see Germany dominate the continent.
 
An Earthquake in Design

In Japan, the Diet had mixed feelings about Washington. It cemented Japan's place at the table; but it was next to the great powers, not necessarily as one of them. The limit of 465,000 tons preserved some of the best of the new ships already under construction, while the ‘8-8’ program was already known to be ruinously expensive. The two ‘Tosa’ class battleships were completed in 1922, but a modest slowdown in pace and rate of expenditure meant that Amagi and Akagi did not enter service until 1923.
Completion of these four would take the IJN up to 462,000 tons.

With the ships still under construction, the Japanese Naval Staff decided to wait and see what Britain and America laid down, believing that their designers could come up with something better.

By late 1922, they had done, and in December that year the battleships Kii and Owari were laid down. As required by treaty, the other powers were informed that the ships were 795’ long, with 101’ beam and would have a draught of 27’ at a Standard Displacement of 36,000 tons.
Such dimensions provoked some suspicion; they were only 31’ shorter than the 41,500-ton ‘Amagis’, although draught was quoted as being less.
Both British and American designers suspected that the Amagis were over their quoted weights. In fact, Amagi herself had come out at 42,250 tons, but the Japanese were not obliged to inform anyone of this, as the figure of 41,500 tons was written into the Treaty as ‘normal’ displacement.

In 1922, the Japanese had no intention of breaking the Treaty, but had noted that contracting powers were obliged to declare the design displacement when the ships were laid down, and the actual displacement once they were completed. They therefore intended to avoid overtly breaking the 36,000-ton ‘implied maximum’, but if the new ships completed a little heavy, it could always be declared later.

As it turned out, that declaration would come much later. On the 1st September 1923, a severe earthquake struck Tokyo and its surroundings, damaging the hull of the Kii, which lay on a slip at Yokosuka Naval Yard. The quake was a dramatic setback for the entire country, and certainly delayed her naval programme by six months, perhaps as much as a year in some cases. The incomplete hull was scrapped on the slip, and some of the material was later re-used in the construction of a new Kii, which was laid down in February 1924.

The ‘Kii’ class took the machinery and hull of ‘Amagi’ and compacted them slightly by eliminating the mixed-firing arrangements. Three triple 16” turrets would mount the same gun as on earlier ships.
A compact arrangement of the boilers and magazines allowed the main belt to be just 377’ long, with one of the engine rooms situated behind the aft turret, protected by a shallower belt that also ran forwards, totalling 133’ in length. All the belt armour was 300mm thick (usually listed as 12”) and inclined at 12-degrees with the side of the hull. The armour deck moved down a level with the drop in the belt, and was a total of 100mm (3.9”) thick. This was split between an 80mm deck at the top of the belt and a 20mm splinter deck below, except over the engine rooms, where the two came together. Barbettes were 13” thick and there was a 14” conning tower, but the turrets were little better protected than those of ‘Nagato’, with 13” faces and 5” roofs. Battery armour was 6”, with a 2” splinter deck beneath it.

On completion, the ships proved to be over the intended 36,000 tons, and once further reinforcing had been added around the bow and the areas where the side armour stepped down, the ships were about 37,300 tons Standard, and it was this weight than the Japanese declared in 1927 once Kii had been completed. They certainly used the ‘trick’ of declaring part-filled magazines, and the ships’ Full Load was 43,790 tons at the time of completion. Addition of 100mm and 12.7mm anti-aircraft guns (as permitted by the ‘3000-ton rule’) soon added to this figure, and the ships were undoubtedly over 45,000 tons Full Load within a few years of their completion.

That weight and size brought with it considerable speed. On trials in 1926, Owari achieved 30.88 knots with 139,200shp, while at 40,470 tons. In service, they were usually regarded as good for 29 knots, and were quite capable of keeping up with the ‘Amagis’.

View attachment 546573
Owari as completed​

Four ‘Myoko’ class cruisers were also authorised at the same time as the 'Kii' class, but again the earthquake intervened. The hull of the Myoko had been completed up to the lower deck when the quake struck, damaging the slip itself and twisting the hull. She was re-laid the following year, while the others were delayed due to the national crisis, finally completing in 1927.
Nominally a 10,000-ton design when they were laid down, the Japanese were not obliged to inform their Treaty partners of the new class. However, during construction their weight grew considerably, and they completed at close to 11,500 tons once strengthening beams had been added to the overloaded hulls.
However, Japan was still bound by the Treaty, which stated that the other powers should be informed of the laying-down or the completion of cruisers over 10,000 tons. They therefore informed their fellow signatories that the four ships had completed at 10,750 tons; itself a lie, but sufficiently close to the truth to avoid any future problems.

Meanwhile, both France and Italy were in poor financial shape. Despite French bellicosity at Washington, there was no question of France using her 210,000-ton limit at any time in the next few years. The four battleships of the Courbet class and the three Bretagnes would lead the French Navy for the foreseeable future. Italy was keeping a wary eye to both the East and West, but with a recovery only just established following a post-war boom then slump, there were no plans for any new heavy ships in 1922. Both nations, however, were urgently looking at the possibilities offered by modern cruisers.

Well I have to admit that at first I was a little surprised, then on thinking about it this actually makes sense. The Japanese always were very willing to be loose with their figures and also design a fast, lightly armoured ship with cramped living arrangements. Most Japanese ships were if I recall correctly more weight efficient than western contemporaries by having less armour and less than ideal crew accommodation. Those things in mind these ships make perfect sense.

Now the fun begins though, where do all the signatories go from here?
 
It is not especially surprising that the Japanese will be breaking or playing very loose with their weight figures, I wonder if this will actually have consequences in this timeline unlike our own.
 

Deleted member 94680

That weight and size brought with it considerable speed. On trials in 1926, Owari achieved 30.88 knots with 139,200shp, while at 40,470 tons. In service, they were usually regarded as good for 29 knots, and were quite capable of keeping up with the ‘Amagis’.

View attachment 546573
Owari as completed​

She'll look awesome in the thirties with a pagoda superstructure. That's a long afterdeck too. Maybe a future "battlecarrier"in the making..?

I'm kidding...
 
A small and faster Yamato...
Jesus Christ!

It's not, the Yamato's were incredibly heavily armoured with a 16.1" main belt, 8-9" of deck armour plus a 10" lower strake. These are far less impressive and much more of the glass cannon school of Japanese naval design. With a mildly sloped 12" belt against the US ships 13.5 and the Nelwoods 14" sloped at 17 degrees they clearly can't compete with other countries battleships in a slugging fest. Though they could run away.
 
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Well I have to admit that at first I was a little surprised, then on thinking about it this actually makes sense. The Japanese always were very willing to be loose with their figures and also design a fast, lightly armoured ship with cramped living arrangements. Most Japanese ships were if I recall correctly more weight efficient than western contemporaries by having less armour and less than ideal crew accommodation. Those things in mind these ships make perfect sense.

Now the fun begins though, where do all the signatories go from here?
The big Japanese problem was that they couldn't do math. To a certain degree it was intentional. To a certain degree it was accidental. To a certain degree it was over extension. To a certain degree it was institutional. To a certain degree it was sheer incompetence.

So they couldn't consistently translate estimated weights on a plan into a real ship. In the 20s it was an embarrassment to be hidden. In the late 30s it was a secret to be exploited. I am not sure that the designers and builders involved were actually happy with the situation. After all, not being able to build the ship you designed is a real problem.

And to be fair every one had their moments. Nelson, Pensacola, etc. And given the technology of the times there is a reason there were gentlemen's agreements to allow a small % of going over the limits.
 
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In fact, I can see an alternate ursine TTL bending everyone's ear with what a pointless waste of money and resources the Lexingtons were. They cost as much as a battleship, both to build and run, they're ludicrous overkill against any actual or prospective cruiser, but with tinfoil armour they can't face even an older BC with any confidence and fighting battleships is right out - so what are they supposed to be for?

Well they were always going to be a pointless waste of money as battlecruisers. They just aren't a good design, but then they are the US's first try, it will be interesting to see what the next pair of US ships is.

In 1922, the Japanese had no intention of breaking the Treaty

That fact that you need to preface that by saying "In 1922" suggests Japan's future is on a similar track to OTL

once further reinforcing had been added around the bow and the areas where the side armour stepped down

That sounds like they had issues with structural strength on sea trials which wouldn't be unusual for a Japanese ship built at this time in OTL. How serious were they and have they bodged the repairs by doing "just enough" or have they properly fixed everything?
 
Well they were always going to be a pointless waste of money as battlecruisers. They just aren't a good design, but then they are the US's first try, it will be interesting to see what the next pair of US ships is.
Don't forget TTL Lexington's are better, though still not the greatest.
 
It's not, the Yamato's were incredibly heavily armoured with a 16.1" main belt, 8-9" of deck armour plus a 10" lower strake. These are far less impressive and much more of the glass cannon school of Japanese naval design. With a mildly sloped 12" belt against the US ships 13.5 and the Nelwoods 14" sloped at 17 degrees they clearly can't compete with other countries battleships in a slugging fest. Though they could run away.

Well what I was referring to was the layout and size, obviously doesn't compare in the most minimum to the Yamato's.

In fact, I can see an alternate ursine TTL bending everyone's ear with what a pointless waste of money and resources the Lexingtons were. They cost as much as a battleship, both to build and run, they're ludicrous overkill against any actual or prospective cruiser, but with tinfoil armour they can't face even an older BC with any confidence and fighting battleships is right out - so what are they supposed to be for?
Well they were always going to be a pointless waste of money as battlecruisers. They just aren't a good design, but then they are the US's first try, it will be interesting to see what the next pair of US ships is.
Don't forget TTL Lexington's are better, though still not the greatest.
That's true, I had forgotten that their belt had been upgraded to 9" which means they are armoured against cruisers, although any modern battleship calibre gun will punch through.

Guys You first have to consider the doctrine behind the construction of the ships themselves and why the Americans decided so late in the race to build them, because that's why they finally did it, namely: they realize that they lacked a decent force of Battle Scouts for fleet duty (the name is no coincidence), that with their guns could brush aside any smaller opponent and still ride at high speed in heavy seas (but not in that order, of course) and the first years of the war just seem to justify the concept to a certain degree and bringing certain acceptance on the Annapolis establishment, especially among the young ones, just Jutland put doubts on it and just in some aspects because, as in TTL as well as OTL, they realize that the most probable cause for "our bloody ships" was an insane and suicidal operation of the vessels not the vessels themselves, and even so the Americans were more worried with getting a better scout than just their current armored cruisers and destroyers, but without letting obsolete their whole battleline that, ultimately, was their prime concern, that's why the admirals still push for them to be included in the 1916 bill and even after that, they pressed for them hard because they need them. And all of this just based in their own conclusions reach trough the fleet problems.

Of course, they lately realize that what they got was the most expensive eggshell in US history but they didn't care at the beginning because first they weren't meant to even face their counterparts (they got the Standards and their excellent radius of action for that), and second because they didn't knew about the carriers and their usefulness until they converted Langley and the Lex's and as soon as they got their carriers, look from where, in the same hulls, to fulfill in better terms the scouting and screening role they were meant to play, they didn't lose time to build them to the best of their capacity.
 
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In short, the reasoning behind the ship's design were similar in general but in a different direction to the British, that to be honest were themselves confused as to how to use their battlecruisers up until the war, as evidence by the mixed cruiser squadrons of pre-war.
 

Deleted member 94680

In short, the reasoning behind the ship's design were similar in general but in a different direction to the British, that to be honest were themselves confused as to how to use their battlecruisers up until the war, as evidence by the mixed cruiser squadrons of pre-war.

The Naval War College in America called for something we might have called a battlecruiser years before HMS Invincible was launched. It was only political lack of will that stopped them from being built before WWI.
 
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