Hello, new member here, also a lurker...

‘The violence that followed spread to neighbouring buildings, and the besieged Reds attempted to block access by throwing the contents of the houses out into the street. Eyewitnesses reported that a local German painter, who was attempting to sell his pictures on the pavement below, was crushed when a piano was hurled out of a third-floor doorway.’

I laughed like an idiot reading this part. What a cartoonish death, really ! Wait a minute... cartoon death... eureka !

WHO FRAMED JOSEPH STALIN ?


ROTFL
 
Hello, new member here, also a lurker...

I laughed like an idiot reading this part. What a cartoonish death, really ! Wait a minute... cartoon death... eureka !
WHO FRAMED JOSEPH STALIN ?

ROTFL
Joe will be appearing in the story in due course, although not in quite such a slapstick way...
 
Showing Restraint
Showing Restraint

For the Royal Navy, meeting the requirements of the Washington Treaty would be simple; in fact it had practically already occurred. Simply scrapping the obsolete 12" dreadnoughts and battlecruisers would leave the RN within its tonnage obligations.

However, this did not leave any room for new ships, of which the RN was in desperate need. The USA and Japan would soon have several 16" gunned heavy ships each, all built with post-war armour schemes. The largest of these would outclass the 15" ‘Queen Elizabeths’ and ‘Royals’, and challenge even the likes of Howe and the RN’s poster-child Furious. Of all the Navy’s ships, only Rodney could be regarded as a truly modern design.
Before Washington, the British government had agreed the construction of four new battleships and four battlecruisers, starting in 1921-22. The program would have been extremely expensive, and part of British enthusiasm for Washington was that it would limit the need for new construction. Happily for the Treasury, eight ships of 45-50,000 tons each was now far beyond what tonnage limits would allow.

With a limit of 36,000 tons of new construction per year, the older ‘Orions’, ‘Lions’ and ‘King George Vs’ were obvious targets for early replacement. Although they had proven valuable in securing Britain’s tonnage allocation during the negotiation, in an environment where cost was now a major driver, keeping these near-obsolete ships in service was no longer a priority. However, the oldest ships were not necessarily the least useful, and the battleships benefitted from the ‘light battleship’ exemption, while the heavier battlecruisers did not. Scrapping a ‘KGV’ or ‘Orion’ would free up only 14,000 tons, while disposing of a ‘Lion’ would free up 26,500.
It was regarded as advisable to make use the ‘training ship’ and ‘target ship’ exemptions as soon as possible. In the latter case, the old 12” dreadnought Colossus was selected for conversion to a disarmed radio-controlled target, in which role she was expected to serve until 1927 when she would be replaced by one of the 13.5” ships.

The training ship was fundamentally more valuable and was expected to see a longer and more varied service life. Consequently, it was decided to use a newer ship in the role, and the 8-year-old HMS Panther was selected. Her graceful lines were butchered by the removal of the fore-funnel (the forward boilers being disabled to comply with the Treaty), the addition of a deckhouse amidships in place of Q-turret and the hasty addition of an enlarged bridge. A-turret and most of the 4” guns were also removed.
The refit reduced her weight and her 24 surviving boilers were converted to oil fuel, which slightly improved their performance. On post-conversion trials she achieved 24.26 knots with 43,640shp, and this turn of speed allowed her to operate with the battlefleet during manoeuvres in later years.

Panther TS.png

HMS Panther, as a training ship in 1930
Aside from the 'zarebas' added during the Second War, she can be seen today in Belfast, little altered from this condition.​

To make room for the two new 36,000-ton vessels that would be laid down under the 1922 Programme, Panther, Lion and Courageous would be disposed of in 1922, technically three years before it would become legally necessary, but the savings in manning the battle-scarred Lion and Courageous would help pay for the cost of conversion. A third 36,000-ton ship was expected under the 1923 Programme (due for completion in 1926), and so it was decided that Princess Royal and one of the ‘Orions’ would end their careers in 1924.

-o-

The question was; should the new vessels be battleships or battlecruisers?
In the years since Stavanger, the Royal Navy's definition of a ‘battlecruiser’ had changed significantly, and the pre-Treaty ‘H-series’ designs were all better-armoured than any RN battleship afloat. Meanwhile, battleship designs had massively thick armour (‘N-3’ had a 15" belt, inclined at 18 degrees, to be proof against 18" fire at 15,000 yards), but were still relatively slow at 23-24 knots.
Neither ‘H’ nor ‘P’ were possible in the light of Washington limits, but there was still a choice between a massively armoured slower ship and a more modestly armoured, faster version.

In the years after the war, British admirals were confident that their ships were faster than foreign contemporaries, but by 1922 it seemed that this advantage was open to question. In practice, the ‘Queen Elizabeths’ would not exceed 23½ knots once bulged, and the ‘Royals’ would be about a ¼-knot slower than that. Meanwhile, the latest US and Japanese designs were believed to be capable of 23 and 25 knots respectively. Even if those were only maximum trial speeds, it suggested the RN might have very little margin over the more modern foreign battle lines.

Following the improvements to Renown and Repulse, the RN had six modern battlecruisers; the newest ships in the fleet. The nine most modern battleships were the survivors of the ‘Royal’ and ‘Queen Elizabeth’ classes. In terms of firepower, Rodney and Furious outclassed them, and while Hood and Howe had the same guns, they could engage at greater ranges.
The armour of the 15” battleships could be improved, but the signing of the treaty meant that they would be at the core of the battlefleet for many years to come. The front of the battle line therefore needed to be stiffened with modern, well-protected battleships.

Senior officers' preference for fast ships meant that some of these would eventually be built, but in February 1922, the decision was made to build two battleships using the 1922 and ’23 tonnage allocations.
More innovative thinkers had suggested a programme of ‘4 ships in 5 years’, which would allow the first years’ allocation to be spread over the subsequent five, allowing each ship to be 44,000 tons. That would permit either a fast battleship with nine 16”, or a slow one with twelve. However, that was not ‘in the spirit’ of the newly signed Treaty, and when the Americans indicated that they would be laying down a pair of 36,000-ton battleships in 1922, it became politically impractical to play games with the limit. As one of the two leading powers, Britain had to show restraint.

In a Treaty world in which 16” guns would be the largest at sea, designers re-evaluated what level of armour would be necessary. 12” or 13” belts once again appeared to be realistic if they were inclined, particularly as wartime experience showed that likely fighting ranges were often in excess of 15,000 yards.
12,000 yards was now regarded as ‘close range’, while it seemed plausible that in good visibility, ships might open fire at close to the maximum range permitted by their guns.

The first effort was to reduce the design of Rodney to 36,000 tons. It came close, but never quite made it. If built as a new ship, she would have been rated at 39,200 tons Standard (per Treaty rules, she had been declared at 40,000 tons, which was her ‘normal’ displacement). Reducing the weight of the complex multi-layered deck armour, removing crushing tubes from the bulges and replacing the conning tower with a lighter structure could bring this down to 37,300 tons, but going further required cutting back on more critical areas, or a complete redesign of the ship.

In earlier studies, it had been shown that nine guns in three turrets could be provided for less weight than eight in four turrets, if the guns were similarly protected. A new design was therefore prepared, and the resulting ‘1922A’ was an attempt at a hybrid battleship. Nine 16" guns would be carried, with the hull and superstructure based on the pre-Treaty designs.
Armour weight was saved on areas such as the barbettes (where they were a traditional 12” thick) to allow a relatively high speed to be maintained. Machinery would be derived from that of ‘G-3’, to give 80,000shp on two shafts, for a trial speed of 26½ knots.

1922A.png

Design 1922-A
Effectively a shortened 'D-33', with reduced engine power and concentrated armour (13" internal belt, 5" / 4" decks)​
 
Interesting, 1922-A sort of reminds me of the early KG-V design with 9 x 15" in three triple turrets.

It looks like two secondary turrets per side, with AA guns between them. Are these twin 6" turrets like the OTL Nelrods or the ITTL Emeralds? Hopefully if 6", they did not try to make them DP guns, I don't think the tech is really ready yet.
 

Deleted member 94680

It looks like two secondary turrets per side, with AA guns between them. Are these twin 6" turrets like the OTL Nelrods or the ITTL Emeralds?

I make it 3 secondary turrets.

Are they twins? Six 6” per side in turrets could be modernised to 4.5” or 4.7” HA guns later on to provide heavy AA if needed.

Overall, I like the look of the 22-As. Although the name could do with a spot of artistry. Saint-class maybe? The Admirals are built in this TL, so they’re out. Or something impressive and regal?
 
I make it 3 secondary turrets.

Are they twins? Six 6” per side in turrets could be modernised to 4.5” or 4.7” HA guns later on to provide heavy AA if needed.

Overall, I like the look of the 22-As. Although the name could do with a spot of artistry. Saint-class maybe? The Admirals are built in this TL, so they’re out. Or something impressive and regal?
There is also room for another twin HA turret forward of the aft 6" turret where there looks to be a single 4.7" HA.
 
I make it 3 secondary turrets.

Are they twins? Six 6” per side in turrets could be modernised to 4.5” or 4.7” HA guns later on to provide heavy AA if needed.

Overall, I like the look of the 22-As. Although the name could do with a spot of artistry. Saint-class maybe? The Admirals are built in this TL, so they’re out. Or something impressive and regal?

Agreed, now I can see the middle turret. It blended into the superstructure the first time I looked. They could convert them to 4.5" or 4.7" HA guns in the 30s, although maybe they would try a Warspite variation where they keep the forward and aft 6" turrets and try to fit three twin HA mounts between them, replacing the middle turret and the single HA gun mount. IIRC the OTL Warspite was modernized in the 30s, but did not lose all her 6" mounts the way Queen Elizabeth and Valiant did.
 
Very nice, handsome looking ships, only flaw I can see is that they 've got lousy AA forwards. That big conning tower's going to block out the sky arcs for 3.7 or Pom-pom mounts. I would assume that as the air threat gets more noticable (as I doubt that 16k ton limit for carriers will last until the 30s because the USN and IJN will realise its too small and push for bigger limits at any future treaty) then more AA guns would be fitted. I'd go with a pom-pom on B and C-turret and there's probably room to slap a few quad Vickers .50 cal mounts on the superstructure too.

Regarding any future changes, the 6-inchers are fine and probably won't be replaced. What would happen is the 3.7's would probably be replaced with dual 4-inch mounts. Looking at the pic, you could probably fit 3 on each side, giving you 6 x 4-inch DP/AA guns in addition to what ever extra AA guns are added.

I saw folks talking about a 4th 6-inch turret in the rear of the superstructure, only problem is that would place it in the firing arc of the aft triple 16-incher and you'd either have to reduce the arc of the main guns, or be willing to risk blast damage to the secondary gun and its crew when at maximum traverse forwards, so really a 4th dual 6-inch mount isn't the best idea.
 
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Deleted member 94680

maybe they would try a Warspite variation where they keep the forward and aft 6" turrets and try to fit three twin HA mounts between them, replacing the middle turret and the single HA gun mount. IIRC the OTL Warspite was modernized in the 30s, but did not lose all her 6" mounts the way Queen Elizabeth and Valiant did.

I thought that was more to do with cost saving, rather than an attempt to fit a different secondary suite as it were?
 
Also one nice little feature, a raised bow! No idiotic requirement to fire ahead at zero elevation for A-turret, that will help with sea keeping and help keep A turret dry.
 
In a straight up fight, I wouldn't bet against one of these vs a Tosa, though a SoDak might be too much to handle
 
That's a rather nice looking ship and not bad on 36000 tons.

Does it actually get built? I know the British are reluctant to push the 36000 ton limit right away but are Japan for example reluctant to push their limit?.
Some additional questions,

  1. Was their no discussion of what Navies other than the USA are doing when the possibility of building 4 ships in 5 years was discussed? That must have raised some questions?
  2. Are design studies going on in the background looking at other Ship Designs. In particular ones that push or exceed the 36000 ton a year limit? a just in case thing?
  3. Was their any thought given to delaying new construction? Its not as if you end up behind by doing that as you can always catch up later with rollover tonnage.
  4. As an extra to that was their any thought of the shape the whole fleet will take with carriers and cruisers as well. It would seem to make sense to have a more all encompassing look at the fleet situation and capabilities of its component ships given their are now limits.
  5. Was their any discussion of retaining a single 12 inch ship in service for the sake of German ship building or is Germany not being looked at right now?
 
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A pity the piano couldn't drop Stalin on Hitler, but I'll take what I can get :)
That's an even better mental image. :)
I apologise to sts-200 for going down this rabbit-hole, but I couldn't resist:
"So, Heinrich, tell us again, in your own words, what happened on the top floor of Lindenstraße 73 yesterday."
"Well, Leutnant, as part of the raid, we were ordered to break down any locked door we found in the building and arrest any Bolscheviks we found. When we got to the third storey, all the rooms were locked. We broke down the doors of the two back rooms and found no-one. When we broke down the first front room door, my colleague was shot by one of the anarchists. We returned fire and killed his murderer. We could hear movement from the other room, so we didn't want to take any chances when entering it. So we decided to break down the door using an improvised ram instead of kicking it open like the other ones. The last door was at the end of the corridor, so we could get a good run at it. We got a chest of drawers from one of the back rooms and rammed it as hard as we could at the door. In one way it worked better than we thought it would; we certainly got through the door okay. But unfortunately we couldn't stop very quickly and the chest of drawers, plus the remains of the door, smashed into the grand piano in the middle of the room. It seems that one of the anarchists, whom I now know to have been one of the ringleaders, a Josef Dschughaschwili, was crouched behind the piano with a pistol, waiting to ambush us. The piano knocked him backwards through the window behind him. By the time we got to the window he'd fallen out. Unfortunately he landed on an innocent member of the public on the pavement below. I and my colleagues want to express our condolences to the family of Herr Hitler, the poor artist who was tragically killed when the Bolschevik fell directly on him."
 
I apologise to sts-200 for going down this rabbit-hole, but I couldn't resist:

Now all we need to do is somehow have either Mussolini, Franco or Mao killing Stalin and then they all meet their ends in some comedic way involving each other like a circle and finally the last one left dies by a heart attack when viewing one of Hitler's paintings because of how shocking it is.
 
So this is basically a slightly less well armoured KGV with bigger guns and 2 knots slower. The RN could do a lot worse, a uniform battlefleet speed of 26 knots gives you a operational advantage over the US and Japanese and these ships have got the best 16" gun afloat and the armour to stand up to a slugging match. Also we've got confirmation that there is a conflict big enough to warrant being known as the "second war". So these battleships are going to be put to the test on a grander scale than some small skirmishes.
 
Aside from the 'zarebas' added during the Second War, she can be seen today in Belfast, little altered from this condition.
I hope we hear a bit about her over the rest of the story!
Simply scrapping the obsolete 12" dreadnoughts and battlecruisers would leave the RN within its tonnage obligations.
I'm still convinced that trading an Orion for a 12" ship is worth it at least for a few years to keep the Germans at 12" for as long as possible.
In earlier studies, it had been shown that nine guns in three turrets could be provided for less weight than eight in four turrets, if the guns were similarly protected. A new design was therefore prepared, and the resulting ‘1922A’ was an attempt at a hybrid battleship. Nine 16" guns would be carried, with the hull and superstructure based on the pre-Treaty designs.
Armour weight was saved on areas such as the barbettes (where they were a traditional 12” thick) to allow a relatively high speed to be maintained. Machinery would be derived from that of ‘G-3’, to give 80,000shp on two shafts, for a trial speed of 26½ knots.

1922A.png

Design 1922-A
Effectively a shortened 'D-33', with reduced engine power and concentrated armour (13" internal belt, 5" / 4" decks)​
This is a good design, and refined versions as technology improves in the coming years would make a nice line of ships, very handy in the event of a hypotheical WW2 ITTL or any war against a major power in general.
 
In a straight up fight, I wouldn't bet against one of these vs a Tosa, though a SoDak might be too much to handle

Against the Tosa this ship has superior armour, more modern (not in casemates) secondaries and (presumably) no torpedo flats (the IJN liked putting torpedo's on its 1920's designs and the Tosa's were no exception). Against the SoDak's you've got 3 knots of extra speed and roughly equal armour, theirs is a big vertical slab, the RN's is an angled belt. But the US ships bigger and has 3 more barrels, but there's only 2 of them and there's going to be 4 of these ships.
 
A very neat design if it fits into 36,000 tons. Compared to Tosa (which is 4,000 tons more), it has similar speed, slightly better side armour and only one gun less.
A couple of oddities - that huge tower bridge and no foremast is a departure from previous designs and steamboy has already noticed that the AA has poor sky arcs. Are those heavy AA guns 3.7", 4" or 4.7"? Also no aircraft facilities, though that was more of a 1930s thing.
I suspect that if it's built, it will come out heavier than they hoped.
 
I think sacrificing the aircraft is needed basically to save weight and space. Aircraft facilities take up a lot of real estate on a battleship, especially as the RN liked its midship hangars, rather than the USN's fantail catapults. On these ships the DNC's had to be pretty ruthless with the weight saving to get the ship they want. You put a hangar in and you're going to need her to be longer, and thus heavier. I would assume that the thinking is more that these would be part of a battlefleet, and not have to do their own scouting. They have cruisers to do that. And probably the radio facilities (later) for decent comms between friendly spotter planes and their guns.
 
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