Dread Nought but the Fury of the Seas
- Thread starter sts-200
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At Jutland they had favorable light and wind conditions to help them and hinder the British, it also really didn't help that the BCF had a horrible lack of recent gunnery training, with the exception of the 3rd Battle Cruiser Squadron who had just literally been doing gunnery practice and as a result were the most accurate unit at Jutland on either side
Also at this Dogger bank the RN ships are firing at extreme range for a long period of time. The difference between the gunnery methods of the two could best be described as this
RN - Slow to narrow down the grouping but more sustainable and once the range was found it was often held.
German - Quicker to get the accurate range/baring and get in earlier hits but it slowly got worse in longer engagements.
So here the RN have a chance to do their kind of gunnery, albeit at a range that pretty much no one's ever shot at, but with the Germans not being able to shoot back due to a lack of range, they basically had a moving gunnery practice session.
RN - Slow to narrow down the grouping but more sustainable and once the range was found it was often held.
German - Quicker to get the accurate range/baring and get in earlier hits but it slowly got worse in longer engagements.
So here the RN have a chance to do their kind of gunnery, albeit at a range that pretty much no one's ever shot at, but with the Germans not being able to shoot back due to a lack of range, they basically had a moving gunnery practice session.
No complaints about rate of fire (apart from that hydraulic pump tweak), so if nothing else the RN's battlecruisers should avoid that unfortunate cordite stacking and exploding issue. That's a major plus right there.
Will we see a German equivalent? I'll admit I am hoping for Hipper to make demands that he urgently needs "improved" gunnery to counter the superior RN gunnery and it all goes wrong for him in hilarious fashion. Super-charged rounds to boost range that end up exploding in the barrel, but only after a dozen rounds have been fired, so his ship's turrets start exploding mid-battle for no obvious reason. Something like that.
One of the four British problems at Jutland may not occur; efforts to fire more quickly are still there, but heading in a different direction.
British gunnery is excellent; Beatty says so, so it must be true (although some genuinely useful lessons are starting to be learned earlier).
No problems with signalling - Everyone's favourite Flags hoisted 'General Chase', then he could fall asleep.
Shells - nothing wrong there; they come out the ends of the barrels don't they?
Perhaps a hint that fires in non-critical areas can cause problems.
Hipper might be regretting missing his chance to turn and strike at three semi-isolated ships, but Billy's favourite toys mustn't be risked. Still, he who fights and runs away...
I can certainly see the German 12" mounts (and the forthcoming 13.4" / 15") being upgraded earlier.
Their 11" mounts could already elevate to 20deg (tells you a lot about German pre-war thinking that their new 12" guns actually had a shorter range than the 11")
*laughs in Marine Nationale* The French 12 and 13.4 inch guns were limited by their elevation to 12k yards
Basically the French were worried about having large openings on their turret fronts and so by limiting the amount of elevation, you limit the space for the gun to swing in and thus a smaller hole.Thank you, glad you are enjoying it.
At Jutland, both sides thought the others' gunnery was better than their own ... probably something to do with being on the receiving end of a half-ton of steel every few seconds.
Both sides had their pluses and minuses, but on average it was actually fairly even. More in my next answer below.
If the 'wrong lessons' ie those 'learned' at OTL Dogger bank do not result ITTL in stacking of propellent outside of the magazine, removal of anti flash doors/interlocks and a relaxation of loose powder management (that apparently left a 'trail of powder' between the magazines and turrets) all in order to increase ROF then the probable root cause for Queen Mary's demise which was almost certainly a turret penetration followed by a cordite flashover down to the magazine.
This preventing the OTL loss of the 2 'I' class BCs (and any other of those early BCs ITTL) is not so certain as they are effectively little better than the Armored Cruisers they were designed and intended to 'dominate' and are effectively fast Armored Cruisers as far as standing up to 11" and 12" gunfire is concerned and the ability of 11" and 12" shells to penetrate their 6" main belts and 7" turret armor (3" roof) at most battle ranges is more telling than any relaxing (or not) of anti flash IMO.
This preventing the OTL loss of the 2 'I' class BCs (and any other of those early BCs ITTL) is not so certain as they are effectively little better than the Armored Cruisers they were designed and intended to 'dominate' and are effectively fast Armored Cruisers as far as standing up to 11" and 12" gunfire is concerned and the ability of 11" and 12" shells to penetrate their 6" main belts and 7" turret armor (3" roof) at most battle ranges is more telling than any relaxing (or not) of anti flash IMO.
The German optics were better (firms like Zeiss are still going strong too) - but in optical terms only, the rangefinders used similar baselines to the British and therefore had similar accuracy.
As Spencers says, Jutland favoured the Germans initially, then once the GF worked around to the East, the British rangetakers had them against the afterglow.
The Germans used stereoscopic rangefinders, which rely on the brain's ability to infer the depth of an image. They are less susceptible to spoofing and can take ranges on irregular objects, however the operators have a tendency to become tired.
The co-incidence rangefinders used by the RN were less 'instinctive', it was a matter of bringing two images together - either they did or didn't match, and so required less interpretation by the operator.
Ultimately, the accuracy depended on the baseline, and there wasn't much difference there in 1915 (or indeed at any other time).
A larger difference was in the development of fire-control systems. The German one was actually more primitive at this stage - they had rangefinders, directors (to designate the target and fire the guns) and devices to estimate the need to aim off (to allow the guns to aim ahead of the target).
The RN used plotting, range-averaging and cross rate-averaging to a far greater degree.
As Steamboy says, that system (most ships had a Dreyer table, but there were numerous variations) gave the RN an advantage in long-duration engagements, as it allowed easy incorporation of results from multiple rangefinders and spotters, and fed back the results of shooting to the gunnery officer, who could order adjustments to the range, line and plot. The trouble was, crews tended to wait to allow plots to form before firing.
The simpler German solution worked well because they opened fire more quickly, based on whatever ranges they had, and pre-Jutland they had a better mechanism for correcting based on observed splashes.
I could go on about this all day (partly because mechanical inertial guidance systems are the descendants of all this stuff), but some of it will feature in the story in due course.
At this story's Dogger Bank (again, as Steamboy says) the RN get to shoot in a way that maximises the value of plotting. Ranges/bearings were changing very slowly, and visibility was good. Range was so long that fancy range-finding is marginal, but they could make the best of these based on a plot, then improve it by shooting using the guns' elevation tables and observed splashes.
What do you expect from a Navy that coated its guns in soot and grease and didn't call its officers 'Sir'...*laughs in Marine Nationale* The French 12 and 13.4 inch guns were limited by their elevation to 12k yards
French warship design just seems to have started to go wrong sometime around 1890.
Should have bought British ... like everyone else.
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What do you expect from a Navy that coated it's guns in soot and grease and didn't call it's officers 'Sir'...
French warship design just seems to have started to go wrong sometime around 1890.
Should have bought British ... like everyone else.
To be fair they were trying not to be 1870'd again
What do you expect from a Navy that coated it's guns in soot and grease and didn't call it's officers 'Sir'...
French warship design just seems to have started to go wrong sometime around 1890.
Should have bought British ... like everyone else.
That'll be the Junne Ecole for you
Oh, yes, they haven't learned the worst lesson from OTL Dogger Bank ... but they have learned other things that might have interesting longer-term consequences.
I believe it is fairly certain that Invincible suffered a turret hit and flash fire, as the event was extensively witnessed, including meaningful accounts from survivors.
Indefatigable is usually grouped in the same category, but I agree it isn't at all clear cut. She was clearly out of command for some time before she blew up, and then lost her stern before the rest of the ship went under. I think the general conclusion is a low-order explosion amidships that crippled her, followed by another hit that detonated X magazine.
No-one seems to be sure whether it was turret or direct penetration. As you say, at the range of loss, X would have been vulnerable to 11" fire.
So meanwhile 'on the other side of the hill' what have the Germans taken away from the battle.
OTL it was not to send an Armored Cruiser to do a Battle Cruisers job and my god turret fires are scary we should do something about that.
There's been a nasty turret fire on Goeben, albeit not as bad as OTL Seydlitz as the magazine was flooded to prevent it spreading.
They're not too dissatisfied with their gunnery performance (they scored hits too).
Hipper will be unhappy that Ingenohl wasn't as close as he said he would be. Aside from any complaints, that would be an argument for better co-ordination and perhaps more aggression.
The British ability to fight at long range is worrying, so they need different tactics and/or longer range guns. I would expect to see a programme to increase turret elevation on the 12" ships.
However, they didn't lose, and the British broke off the pursuit (seemingly under the threat of their torpedo boats), so undoubtedly certain officers are jumping up and down wanting greater flexibility to engage.
Playing Musical Turrets
Playing Musical Turrets
Ezekiel Schmitt of the Bethlehem Steel Corporation felt satisfied as he stepped off the boat in New York. In fact, he was returning from the Netherlands feeling more than just satisfied, he felt like a million bucks. In no small part thanks to his wheedling, he’d just secured an order worth far more than that.
The declarations of war in Europe had made one of his firm’s contracts, for four twin turrets, impossible to fulfil; even though the weapons were intended for a Greek ship, a neutral nation, just like the USA. However, the ship was being built in Germany, and the guns would have had to cross 4,000 miles of Royal-Navy-infested ocean to get there. Even on a neutral American ship, he’d been told that wasn’t ever going to happen.
His bosses had kicked up a fuss at the State Department, and had met with support from other American businesses, who’d seen their links with Germany and Austria cut off. Even foodstuffs and non-military stores were being stopped, but as one official had put it informally; ‘The Limeys control the oceans and what goes over them. You might not like it, but it’s a fact.’
Nevertheless, grievances had been placed before the British, and Bethlehem Steel had benefitted. The guns and turrets had been bought by the British, and delivery was now underway.
What made Schmitt so pleased was that he’d just completed the sale of another set of identical turrets, intended for the same ship. The Hamburg yard couldn’t complete the ship, and once the Greeks realised that, they’d cancelled the contract, whereupon the Germans sold the ship to the Dutch. Schmitt suspected there’d been a few back-room deals somewhere in there, but even as he’d boarded an American steamer in Holland, they had towed the incomplete hull to Amsterdam, where they planned to complete it themselves. His trip had been a success; they’d ordered another set of guns, turrets and ammunition, which his company confirmed they could deliver in 1916. This would be neutral to neutral, so there should be no problems.
Schmitt had no liking for the English, but he had to admit they’d done his career a power of good. Over in Europe, he’d learned the Dutch had wanted their own battlefleet for some years, but had chosen to act following the violation of their neutrality in the Indies a few months ago. He’d seen the pictures of the wreck of the Blucher, lying just a few yards off some Dutch island, and the stories in the press of how the German Admiral said that he was seeking internment when the Limeys had opened fire.
The Dutch had bought the ship and were talking about buying more; supposedly to protect their colonies, although Schmitt suspected they’d also got a pretty good deal for the purchase of the incomplete ship. Like many of his fellow Americans, their traders obviously saw the promise of war profits. He wondered if they secretly planned to sell her on to the Greeks, at a profit, or maybe even back to the Germans. Good for them, he thought.
A few months later, Schmitt was feeling the benefits of his good fortune. Promotion and the accompanying pay rise had made his family’s life easier. Nevertheless, seniority carried its burdens; he’d been charged with a new overseas mission, this time to England. He wasn’t overjoyed to be dealing with those people, but when he’d hinted that, it had been made clear to him that his recent promotion could always be reversed. He was well acquainted with the 14” turrets that had been re-sold to the British Navy, and he was needed over there to supervise their erection and checkout after they were shipped, and to act as liaison between Bethlehem Steel and the British shipyards.
Even so, it wasn’t all bad. The company was giving him a generous allowance for the trip, and a first-class ticket aboard the fast and luxurious Lusitania.
Ezekiel Schmitt of the Bethlehem Steel Corporation felt satisfied as he stepped off the boat in New York. In fact, he was returning from the Netherlands feeling more than just satisfied, he felt like a million bucks. In no small part thanks to his wheedling, he’d just secured an order worth far more than that.
The declarations of war in Europe had made one of his firm’s contracts, for four twin turrets, impossible to fulfil; even though the weapons were intended for a Greek ship, a neutral nation, just like the USA. However, the ship was being built in Germany, and the guns would have had to cross 4,000 miles of Royal-Navy-infested ocean to get there. Even on a neutral American ship, he’d been told that wasn’t ever going to happen.
His bosses had kicked up a fuss at the State Department, and had met with support from other American businesses, who’d seen their links with Germany and Austria cut off. Even foodstuffs and non-military stores were being stopped, but as one official had put it informally; ‘The Limeys control the oceans and what goes over them. You might not like it, but it’s a fact.’
Nevertheless, grievances had been placed before the British, and Bethlehem Steel had benefitted. The guns and turrets had been bought by the British, and delivery was now underway.
What made Schmitt so pleased was that he’d just completed the sale of another set of identical turrets, intended for the same ship. The Hamburg yard couldn’t complete the ship, and once the Greeks realised that, they’d cancelled the contract, whereupon the Germans sold the ship to the Dutch. Schmitt suspected there’d been a few back-room deals somewhere in there, but even as he’d boarded an American steamer in Holland, they had towed the incomplete hull to Amsterdam, where they planned to complete it themselves. His trip had been a success; they’d ordered another set of guns, turrets and ammunition, which his company confirmed they could deliver in 1916. This would be neutral to neutral, so there should be no problems.
Schmitt had no liking for the English, but he had to admit they’d done his career a power of good. Over in Europe, he’d learned the Dutch had wanted their own battlefleet for some years, but had chosen to act following the violation of their neutrality in the Indies a few months ago. He’d seen the pictures of the wreck of the Blucher, lying just a few yards off some Dutch island, and the stories in the press of how the German Admiral said that he was seeking internment when the Limeys had opened fire.
The Dutch had bought the ship and were talking about buying more; supposedly to protect their colonies, although Schmitt suspected they’d also got a pretty good deal for the purchase of the incomplete ship. Like many of his fellow Americans, their traders obviously saw the promise of war profits. He wondered if they secretly planned to sell her on to the Greeks, at a profit, or maybe even back to the Germans. Good for them, he thought.
A few months later, Schmitt was feeling the benefits of his good fortune. Promotion and the accompanying pay rise had made his family’s life easier. Nevertheless, seniority carried its burdens; he’d been charged with a new overseas mission, this time to England. He wasn’t overjoyed to be dealing with those people, but when he’d hinted that, it had been made clear to him that his recent promotion could always be reversed. He was well acquainted with the 14” turrets that had been re-sold to the British Navy, and he was needed over there to supervise their erection and checkout after they were shipped, and to act as liaison between Bethlehem Steel and the British shipyards.
Even so, it wasn’t all bad. The company was giving him a generous allowance for the trip, and a first-class ticket aboard the fast and luxurious Lusitania.
Interesting shenanigans, I doubt the Dutch would sell the Germans back a battleship though, that would earn the Ente's displeasure to say the least! But those 14-inch guns in the UK, I wonder where they are going or what they are going on? Monitors? Or is the RN bunging them on a warship hull?
My guess would be either monitors, or a pair of "Large Light Cruisers" unless I've missed something that prevents Fisher building the damn things.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Ah......... it was all going so well.......
The turrets went to monitors IOTL - maybe more interest in accelerating battlecruiser production ITTL?