You might be able to get something like HACS in service a few years earlier. You're not getting something like the Mk. 37, which was wholly superior to the HACS, which means there's no way in hell AA fire control is going to be ten years more advanced.

I'm not aware of any technology on a basic Mk.37, or its associated Ford Mk.1A, that couldn't have been available earlier (or the same results being achieved in different ways), subject to a suitable development programme in the 20s.
I'm not suggesting one could go to sea in 1923, but that you can do a lot of development in ten years, subject to it being a priority, which in reality, it wasn't.

Development of those got plenty of attention interwar; the British were still having problems with both heavy and medium AA well into the 1940s.
Rather too much development in the case of the British!
Too many different mounts, too many different guns, none of them particularly good.
 
Those advances happened in the 30s, but there was relatively little effort made during the 20s (many crucial RN AA decisions were made in 1931). Perhaps I clouded the issue by suggesting AA development was coupled to the construction of ships - which it needn't be - but if they were building, then it might provoke more active research.
The mechanical computers, gyros, sights, and methods of data transmission all existed by 1920, although these would need to be integrated and improved - not a trivial task in any way, but one that could have been started earlier and pursued harder.
Radar isn't happening muc

I think you're underestimating the threat driver. At this point in OTL and ATL aircraft simply aren't a threat to battleships except as reconnaissance platforms and no AA can do anything about that. In that context spending a small amount of money on developing AA against future aircraft makes sense but there's always endless calls on R&D money and AA simply isn't a top priority. In 1938 aircraft are a lot more scary and spending money on AA absolutely is a top priority. I don't think the rationale is going to be all that different in this tl. If anything the push to spend serious money on effective AA FCS is weaker than OTL due to less development of aircraft due to the shorter war.
 
I think you're underestimating the threat driver. At this point in OTL and ATL aircraft simply aren't a threat to battleships except as reconnaissance platforms and no AA can do anything about that. In that context spending a small amount of money on developing AA against future aircraft makes sense but there's always endless calls on R&D money and AA simply isn't a top priority. In 1938 aircraft are a lot more scary and spending money on AA absolutely is a top priority. I don't think the rationale is going to be all that different in this tl. If anything the push to spend serious money on effective AA FCS is weaker than OTL due to less development of aircraft due to the shorter war.
That's a very good point, defensive systems usually react to actual development in offensive ones, rather than merely predictions of development.

As to the story (rather than the discussion above) - no, as you say, aircraft are not (so far) much of a demonstrable threat. If anything, it's less so than in reality.
 
Take the QF 2-pounder MkVIII. Designed for use on the G3s. No G3s. No urgency to develop it. Doesn't enter service till 1930. More battleships more development. Same for HACS. The G3s were meant to have centralized directors for AA. OTL HACs didn't go to sea until 1930. More ships using it, more development.
Which is why I said you could get HACS a few years early; G3s aren't hitting the water until 1927 or thereabouts anyway. Same with the octuple Pom-Poms.
 
That's a very good point, defensive systems usually react to actual development in offensive ones, rather than merely predictions of development.

I think that's the key thing in the debate about upthread about systems like the Mk. 37. Even if the underlying technologies to make it existed in 1920 the motive to spend money not just on it but in the preceding series of designs necessary to get to it just isn't there without aircraft that are a real threat and those aren't going to come along until the late twenties, about the time that OTL navies started spending money. If you want to pull forward shipboard AA technologies you need to change the route of aircraft development, not ships even pulling forward the fielding of HACS wouldn't change that. When it entered service in OTL it was good enough and they only started to spend money on upgrading it when newer, faster aircraft started causing it problems. If the G3's has been built it just would have had a longer honeymoon.
 
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That's why you give 8" guns 70 degree elevation!
Thinking of those, I've previously amused myself thinking of what might be said:-

Somewhere at sea, 1943, on an American ship,
'Look at those Limeys, they're engaging already ... what idiot gave us these 5" pop-guns.'
Not long afterwards, aboard a British ship...
'Look at the amount of fire those Yanks can put up ... what idiot thought 8" could be an AA gun.'

... No real point to make, other than it's human nature to suspect everyone else's kit must be better than yours, even when it isn't.
 
That's why you give 8" guns 70 degree elevation!
I swear someone was drunk and swapped out the turret and barbet armor requirement in exchange for a practically useless ability to engage aircraft with a 8" gun for the Counties and their smaller cousins the Yorks, since the obvious solution to the air threat is to mount more 4" DP secondaries instead. Even in the 20s such an ability was of very limited utility
 
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I think what will really drive the AA suites on the ships will be who is using zeppelins in scouting roles and such. You will need a gun that doesn't need a fast tracking because of the lower speeds but a better velocity to reach the higher altitude of the Zep's. Something like an 8 or 6 inch gun makes sense because of the larger bursting radius of the shells that they have. You don't have to traverse fast but you do need to put up something to reach that altitude with a good size radius of fragmentation with both shrapnel and incendiary pieces.
 
That's why you give 8" guns 70 degree elevation!
Never mind the 8", go the whole hog and give the 16" 70-degree elevation! I believe that OTL Nelson did in fact fire her 16" in AA mode at some no doubt very surprised Italian recon planes, but battleship-calibre AA was one of those cool ideas that never ended up doing much for anyone.
 
Never mind the 8", go the whole hog and give the 16" 70-degree elevation! I believe that OTL Nelson did in fact fire her 16" in AA mode at some no doubt very surprised Italian recon planes, but battleship-calibre AA was one of those cool ideas that never ended up doing much for anyone.
16"? Yamato had AA shells for her 18" guns!
 
That's why you give 8" guns 70 degree elevation!
Never mind the 8", go the whole hog and give the 16" 70-degree elevation! I believe that OTL Nelson did in fact fire her 16" in AA mode at some no doubt very surprised Italian recon planes, but battleship-calibre AA was one of those cool ideas that never ended up doing much for anyone.

16"? Yamato had AA shells for her 18" guns!

Yes, and they didn't do much for Yamato either, although IIRC I think they did impress the US planes that sank her in Ten-Go.
 
I think what will really drive the AA suites on the ships will be who is using zeppelins in scouting roles and such. You will need a gun that doesn't need a fast tracking because of the lower speeds but a better velocity to reach the higher altitude of the Zep's. Something like an 8 or 6 inch gun makes sense because of the larger bursting radius of the shells that they have. You don't have to traverse fast but you do need to put up something to reach that altitude with a good size radius of fragmentation with both shrapnel and incendiary pieces.
An 'anti-Zeppelin system' isn't a bad starting point for thinking about how to deter scout aircraft either - wartime Zeps were sometimes faster, and could certainly climb higher and faster than bombers of the time.
Obviously, that advantage didn't last long, but in the early 20s it's still just about debatable.

To my mind, some of the most amusing air actions occurred in the North Sea as heavy ships tried to chase off Zeppelins - by shooting their 13.5" or 15" guns, quite literally at thin air!
 
Alphabet Soup 2 – Battlecruisers
Alphabet Soup 2 – Battlecruisers

Battlecruiser concepts also started with what designers knew and understood; the Royal Navy’s latest and best all-round ship, HMS Rodney, herself a derivative of Hood.

They got off to a flying start with the ‘C-series’, which used an expanded version of the hull form of Hood with a transom stern to maximise available length.
These were effectively ‘Super Furious’ designs, which removed many of the deficiencies of the original ship. The hull was deeper and stronger, and a uniform 12" belt reached the upper deck, which would have 4-5" of armour. Furious’ bizarre turbine arrangements and numerous boilers were replaced with the machinery of Hood, slightly improved to deliver 140,000shp.

At 875' x 106', C-2 was a flush-decked, transom-sterned ship with eight 18” Mk.1 guns in four turrets. Turret protection was improved to match that of Rodney, with 15” faces and 5” roofs, but the twelve 6” in shielded mounts were as in earlier ships. Displacement was 48,500 tons (normal), and speed would be 30 knots.
C-3 had nine 18” Mk.1 in three turrets. Displacement decreased to 47,900 tons, but speed would still be 30 knots.

Royal Navy commanders salivated when they saw these concepts, but as ever the devil was in the details, and the designers never regarded the C-series as more than a baseline. It did highlight several issues; that nine guns in triple turrets could be provided for virtually the same weight as eight in twin turrets, and that (as Rodney's designers had found) the Admiral-class hull form and machinery was being pushed to its limits.

The ‘D-series’ could be regarded as hybrids of Hood and Rodney, and were the last of the Admiral-class derivatives. With transom sterns, length was 860' and beam 106', with an armament of 16" Mk.2 guns.
D-2 was simply modernised and stretched version of Rodney, with the hull altered to allow a full set of improved Hood machinery to be fitted, and to give a slightly deeper torpedo bulge (thereby increasing its effectiveness). Overall weight of armour was slightly less than Rodney, but it was better distributed, as deck armour would consist of a single thickness of 3-5” on the upper deck, while protection to the ends of the ship was virtually eliminated. However, the changes were something of a disappointment, as models showed that 140,000shp was expected to deliver only 31 knots at a normal load of 43,100 tons.
D-3 had nine 16", with the barbettes for the triple turrets being better protected than on the original twins. At 43,600 tons, speed was perhaps a tenth of a knot less than D-2, but this still counted against them.

Neither ‘C’ nor ‘D’ could be regarded as entirely satisfactory. Deck armour had been made more effective, but not more extensive, and all the designs had the same 12”, 10-degree inclined belt as Rodney. Torpedo protection was only slightly improved, and at realistic seagoing loads, it was unlikely that the C-series would achieve more than 29 knots.
It was known that the Americans were building their ‘Lexingtons’ with a speed of at least 32 knots, and the Japanese were certainly designing 30-knot or 32-knot battlecruisers. Aside from this immediate concern, a further factor was that these ships would be required for a great deal more than eight years of front-line service. In an era of larger ships and post-war austerity, this new generation of capital ships would be expected to serve fifteen or more years in the front line.
Once those facts sunk in, it was believed that ‘C’ and ‘D’, although impressive, would be too slow to be competitive battlecruisers into the 1940s.

However, some months later, the series was revisited with D-33, although she was in fact an entirely new ship, derived from the hull form and improved machinery of the later ‘I-series’, but with a more conventional layout. Power was increased to 160,000shp, displacement to 45,500 tons and speed to 32¼ knots. Protection was also improved, in the form of an internal 12” inclined belt, with six new twin turrets for the 6” battery.

D33.png

D-33, from January 1921​
 
Now THAT is a beautiful ship! A full length 12-inch belt , 9 x 16-inch guns and 32 knot speed. No space wasted on aircraft facilities either. Also that lovely long superstructure gives lots of room for AA guns later in her life as well. Also good to see the RN's not going to waste space or room on torpedoes for the ship either. The heavy AA appears to be the 4.7's that we saw on the OTL Nelrods - http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_47-40_mk8.php which would be an adequate AA gun for the era and there appears to be 3 per side. I can also see two 'bandstands' for Pom-pom mounts, although I'm surprised there's not one on that structure aft. Still 4 x octuple pom-pom's and 6 x 4.7-inch guns is a good AA fit for the era.

I just hope these lovely ships don't get chopped down by any Cherry Tree's.
 
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Deleted member 94680

I like that the secondary battery is in twin turrets. Gives the ability to improve them further down the line. Twin funnels are a good look as well. As @steamboy has said, plenty of superstructure space for pom-poms and bofors (or ATL versions of) later on as well.

Let's hope she (and her sisters) gets built...
 
However, some months later, the series was revisited with D-33, although she was in fact an entirely new ship, derived from the hull form and improved machinery of the later ‘I-series’, but with a more conventional layout. Power was increased to 160,000shp, displacement to 45,500 tons and speed to 32¼ knots. Protection was also improved, in the form of an internal 12” inclined belt, with six new twin turrets for the 6” battery.

D33.png

D-33, from January 1921​
That superstructure looks almost German. The funnel location seems to indicate some wonky boiler arrangements. I think the forward funnel of this design is too far back for the boiler rooms under the superstructure. It might be a good idea to unitize the boiler and engine compartments, so the forward funnel moves farther forward and the aft funnel moves farther back.
 
My only problem is this seems to be the classic British BC in that it sacrifices armor for speed, and is still armored for fighting 16" ships a la Rodney, whereas the RN should expect it to have to fight 18" ships in the near future, which will make these ships into swiss cheese

Edit: Those twin 6" turrets on a cruiser would be very nice
 
i'd say the funnel arrangements perfectly fine really, you can't move it forwards because then you'd be cooking the people in the foretop, you can't move it back because it would look ugly as all hell.

I'd honestly say that 18-inch gunned ships are going to be a bit of an outlier, there's probably not going to be many of them around the world and if they are made, most will be slower battleships which a battlecruiser can avoid.
 
Thinking of those, I've previously amused myself thinking of what might be said:-

Somewhere at sea, 1943, on an American ship,
'Look at those Limeys, they're engaging already ... what idiot gave us these 5" pop-guns.'
Not long afterwards, aboard a British ship...
'Look at the amount of fire those Yanks can put up ... what idiot thought 8" could be an AA gun.'

... No real point to make, other than it's human nature to suspect everyone else's kit must be better than yours, even when it isn't.
That literally paraphrases actual comments about HMAS Australia operations with the USN using ABU.

Basically "Why are their turrets traversing... holy!!!"
Basically they could engage when the USN couldn't, used it, and were effective.
 
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