True, but remember that Romania (like Italy) had potential territorial claims East and West and backed the most likely winner. Much depends on whether or not Russia goes red TTL. That being said, I think it is going to be the balance of greatest fears. Romania is not going to be particularly scared of either a centralised Serb-Croat kingdom (stirring up Croat and Bosniak unrest will keep it rickety) or a decentralised one (no unrest to exploit but a rather unwieldy group of constituent parts) or a rather weak Hungary. OTOH she is going to be terrified of Russia.
Dread Nought but the Fury of the Seas
- Thread starter sts-200
- Start date
An excellent summation of the fleet and its state at the end of the War. And really laying up the Courageous and scrapping Glorious is the best use for them. IIRC the RN has stopped two of the improved Hood type ships right? Those hulls could be useful for CV conversions a-la Lexingtons BC into CV hulls, giving the RN two larger hulls to work with rather than three comparatively small ones.
Two Hood hull CV's would certainly be a better than using the Follies but even better would be to run Argus for a few years and really iron out what you want in an aircraft carrier and then design a clean sheet ship. The 10 Year Rule in this tl is the perfect context for such an approach as well.
EDIT: Maybe have a single purpose built Argus replacement in FY 1920/21 with an in service date of 1922/3. Run experiments on that and then have a four ship class scheduled for FY 1924/5, assuming a two to three year build time. That way by 1927 and the expiry of the 10 year rule you have 4 good purpose built CV's probably equivalent to an Ark Royal plus one slightly less useful 1st gen carrier. After that incorporate carrier into the capital ship build program alongside battleships and battlecruisers .
EDIT: Maybe have a single purpose built Argus replacement in FY 1920/21 with an in service date of 1922/3. Run experiments on that and then have a four ship class scheduled for FY 1924/5, assuming a two to three year build time. That way by 1927 and the expiry of the 10 year rule you have 4 good purpose built CV's probably equivalent to an Ark Royal plus one slightly less useful 1st gen carrier. After that incorporate carrier into the capital ship build program alongside battleships and battlecruisers .
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Three Hood-derivatives are being built (Hood, Howe and Rodney).
Hardy was stopped and the yard authorised to clear the slip, so there's not going to be a 'free' hull available.
It certainly gives them time to experiment, although of course it's really there to stop the government having to pay up until 1923-ish.
There's an installment coming on Argus and associated matters, so I won't spoil that now.
I will note that aviation is a bit behind where it was in reality - as the war ended early, R&D into planes, engines, instruments etc... will have slowed.
However, it's still the 'exciting new frontier', so it will certainly develop, and in naval terms, the potential uses are obvious to all but the most battleship-mad admiral.
I always thought that while the 3 Spurious aircraft carrier conversions were handy and did provide the Rn with a number of fleet carriers they would have been better served by purpose built ships say 3 x Hermes type ships + Argus and Eagle evolving into 3 x Sir Arthur Johns designed Arks in the early mid 30's as the technology and learning matured.
Deleted member 94680
That would probably require the Sea Lords to take naval aviation quite a bit more seriously than they did OTL to make happen
True, the RN was quite air concious, first CVs, first torpedo bombers, the pom-pom mount which, when introduced was the best medium AA gun in the world. etc etc
Not sure I'd agree there. The 3 Follies were pretty good carriers (for a first attempt in the 1920s/early 30s) - at least once Furious went through her many rebuilds.
Hermes was perhaps a 'path not taken' - a worthy experiment, almost an aviation cruiser, but too small to be a 'proper carrier' as they would become by the late 30s.
Agree re the Ark, they should have just kept building them. The reason why they didn't is, in my opinion, twisted and tenuous, and based on too many assumptions.
Bargain Basement Boats!
Bargain Basement Boats!
…must sell before the tide comes in.
In 1918, HMS Newfoundland was sold back to Chile, following a brief refit. Despite her deficiencies in protection, several senior officers had expressed a desire to retain this fast and powerful battleship, as she could be tactically compatible with the ‘Queens’ and ‘Royals’.
The Chileans were offered what must one of the biggest ‘buy one, get one free’ deals in history. The dreadnought Hercules was offered to them for a lower price than the Newfoundland, with the battlecruiser Invincible to be included in the deal. Very wisely, the Chilean government turned down this offer; the 12" gunned ships were virtually obsolete, and they knew they could only afford to keep one ship in service. The 14" gunned super-dreadnought, to be renamed Almirante Latorre, was superior to the Argentinian ‘Rivadavia’ class, and was therefore what the Chilean Navy wanted.
Across the Atlantic, the end of the war brought demands from Canada that Britain honour a pre-war deal, in which the battleship HMS Canada had been funded in return for Britain supplying materials and technical skills needed for the construction of several cruisers and destroyers. The matter had since been treated as a war loan, but there was still a desire to see Canadian shipbuilding benefit in some small way. An initial British offer to transfer a pair of cruisers was rejected, and so in 1919, machinery, funds and technical assistance was provided to assist in the construction of a ‘Carlisle’ class cruiser and a pair of sloops in Canada. There were hopes for a second ship, but HMCS Vancouver would be slow to build, and by the time she commissioned in 1923, the Canadian Navy faced other pressures.
On the 21st June 1919, the Dutch battlecruiser Sumatra sailed through the English Channel at the beginning of her first overseas voyage. Originally the German Hindenburg, she had been bought by the Dutch in 1917, and had since been refitted and training, while the tiny Dutch Navy began to expand to make use of the ships it had suddenly acquired. As Sumatra sailed, the crew of the De Ruyter (the former Baden) were in the early stages of transforming themselves into a coherent fighting force.
Sumatra accompanied another battleship, formerly known as Piet Hien, but which had reverted to her original name of Salamis since the Dutch had completed her sale to the Greek government earlier in the year. She was sailing to her new homeland, where she would join two ex-American pre-dreadnoughts in helping to deter the Turks from any future moves against Greece.
The Dutch could feel rather pleased with themselves over this deal, as the Italians had offered the Greeks the Konig Albert, while the British had offered to complete the powerful Almirante Cochrane (a sister of Newfoundland).
However, the Greeks wanted their new ship quickly, and didn’t want a worn-out ex-German 12” ship when they could have a newish 14” one. It had helped that, with more ex-German ships than they knew what to do with, the Dutch had been prepared to sell Salamis for a very good price.
The newly formed Kingdom of the Serbs and Croats had inherited most of what was left of the Austrian Navy, including five battleships (only two of which were dreadnoughts) and a numbers of cruisers, destroyers and submarines. However, with the former Empire’s two main naval bases now in Italian hands, and with little technical expertise, their fleet was unlikely to be going far. By the summer of 1919, all that could be managed was a training cruise by the Svent Istvan, on a trip that was shadowed by a vastly more powerful and experienced Italian force.
With such limited resources, the reality was that the new Serbian Navy would be obliged to concentrate on light forces, and perhaps its submarines, for some years to come.
Faced with a greatly reduced but still extant German Navy, and with the Italian Fleet having enjoyed considerable success during the war, France’s Marine Nationale had studied bringing the ex-German Kaiserin into service. However, it had proven too difficult, as everything about the ship was different to French machinery and practice. Several of her guns and a good deal of her equipment was stripped and used elsewhere, and the vessel herself ultimately became a floating battery at Toulon in the mid-1920s.
Neither the British nor the Americans were interested in putting obsolete ex-German ships into service, but the process of scrapping them would take some years and they could be of value in the meantime.
In 1919, Kaiser and Kronprinz were the subject of intensive firing trials by British warships. Shots were fired at short range from the 18” guns of Furious and the 15” guns of the monitor Terror, with charges reduced to simulate shells arriving from between 15,000-21,000 yards. Even at the longest range, an inert 18” shell penetrated Kronprinz’s 13.8” belt and appeared to be in a condition fit to burst. One of the new 15” ‘Greenboy’ shells penetrated the 14” belt at a range equivalent to 15,000 yards and exploded inside, although at a simulated range of 19,000 yards, a similar shell was kept out by the 14” conning tower.
British shells had shown very poor performance during the war when striking at an angle, and so trials were also carried out with the Kaiser moored so that hits occurred as if fired from 30-degrees off the beam. Old wartime shells would be broken by armour as thin as 6-8” when striking at such angles, but the new strong-walled types proved to be far more resilient.
Even at an equivalent of 21,000 yards, a new 15” shell successfully penetrated Kaiser’s 7.9” upper belt, while at 15,000 yards, an 11.8” turret face was holed, although on that occasion the shell failed to burst. At the conclusion of the trials, the Director of Naval Ordnance was satisfied that Royal Navy battleships were better armed than ever before, and that the 15” Mk.1 gun was once again one of the deadliest weapons afloat.
As Sumatra sailed through the English Channel on 21st June, Kronprinz was meeting her end off the north coast of Scotland. Royal George, Valiant and Hood fired on her with their 15” guns from ranges of between 17,000 and 20,000 yards. 106 shots were fired, with 19 hits registered, leaving her wrecked. She sank barely half an hour later.
…must sell before the tide comes in.
In 1918, HMS Newfoundland was sold back to Chile, following a brief refit. Despite her deficiencies in protection, several senior officers had expressed a desire to retain this fast and powerful battleship, as she could be tactically compatible with the ‘Queens’ and ‘Royals’.
The Chileans were offered what must one of the biggest ‘buy one, get one free’ deals in history. The dreadnought Hercules was offered to them for a lower price than the Newfoundland, with the battlecruiser Invincible to be included in the deal. Very wisely, the Chilean government turned down this offer; the 12" gunned ships were virtually obsolete, and they knew they could only afford to keep one ship in service. The 14" gunned super-dreadnought, to be renamed Almirante Latorre, was superior to the Argentinian ‘Rivadavia’ class, and was therefore what the Chilean Navy wanted.
Across the Atlantic, the end of the war brought demands from Canada that Britain honour a pre-war deal, in which the battleship HMS Canada had been funded in return for Britain supplying materials and technical skills needed for the construction of several cruisers and destroyers. The matter had since been treated as a war loan, but there was still a desire to see Canadian shipbuilding benefit in some small way. An initial British offer to transfer a pair of cruisers was rejected, and so in 1919, machinery, funds and technical assistance was provided to assist in the construction of a ‘Carlisle’ class cruiser and a pair of sloops in Canada. There were hopes for a second ship, but HMCS Vancouver would be slow to build, and by the time she commissioned in 1923, the Canadian Navy faced other pressures.
On the 21st June 1919, the Dutch battlecruiser Sumatra sailed through the English Channel at the beginning of her first overseas voyage. Originally the German Hindenburg, she had been bought by the Dutch in 1917, and had since been refitted and training, while the tiny Dutch Navy began to expand to make use of the ships it had suddenly acquired. As Sumatra sailed, the crew of the De Ruyter (the former Baden) were in the early stages of transforming themselves into a coherent fighting force.
Sumatra accompanied another battleship, formerly known as Piet Hien, but which had reverted to her original name of Salamis since the Dutch had completed her sale to the Greek government earlier in the year. She was sailing to her new homeland, where she would join two ex-American pre-dreadnoughts in helping to deter the Turks from any future moves against Greece.
The Dutch could feel rather pleased with themselves over this deal, as the Italians had offered the Greeks the Konig Albert, while the British had offered to complete the powerful Almirante Cochrane (a sister of Newfoundland).
However, the Greeks wanted their new ship quickly, and didn’t want a worn-out ex-German 12” ship when they could have a newish 14” one. It had helped that, with more ex-German ships than they knew what to do with, the Dutch had been prepared to sell Salamis for a very good price.
The newly formed Kingdom of the Serbs and Croats had inherited most of what was left of the Austrian Navy, including five battleships (only two of which were dreadnoughts) and a numbers of cruisers, destroyers and submarines. However, with the former Empire’s two main naval bases now in Italian hands, and with little technical expertise, their fleet was unlikely to be going far. By the summer of 1919, all that could be managed was a training cruise by the Svent Istvan, on a trip that was shadowed by a vastly more powerful and experienced Italian force.
With such limited resources, the reality was that the new Serbian Navy would be obliged to concentrate on light forces, and perhaps its submarines, for some years to come.
Faced with a greatly reduced but still extant German Navy, and with the Italian Fleet having enjoyed considerable success during the war, France’s Marine Nationale had studied bringing the ex-German Kaiserin into service. However, it had proven too difficult, as everything about the ship was different to French machinery and practice. Several of her guns and a good deal of her equipment was stripped and used elsewhere, and the vessel herself ultimately became a floating battery at Toulon in the mid-1920s.
Neither the British nor the Americans were interested in putting obsolete ex-German ships into service, but the process of scrapping them would take some years and they could be of value in the meantime.
In 1919, Kaiser and Kronprinz were the subject of intensive firing trials by British warships. Shots were fired at short range from the 18” guns of Furious and the 15” guns of the monitor Terror, with charges reduced to simulate shells arriving from between 15,000-21,000 yards. Even at the longest range, an inert 18” shell penetrated Kronprinz’s 13.8” belt and appeared to be in a condition fit to burst. One of the new 15” ‘Greenboy’ shells penetrated the 14” belt at a range equivalent to 15,000 yards and exploded inside, although at a simulated range of 19,000 yards, a similar shell was kept out by the 14” conning tower.
British shells had shown very poor performance during the war when striking at an angle, and so trials were also carried out with the Kaiser moored so that hits occurred as if fired from 30-degrees off the beam. Old wartime shells would be broken by armour as thin as 6-8” when striking at such angles, but the new strong-walled types proved to be far more resilient.
Even at an equivalent of 21,000 yards, a new 15” shell successfully penetrated Kaiser’s 7.9” upper belt, while at 15,000 yards, an 11.8” turret face was holed, although on that occasion the shell failed to burst. At the conclusion of the trials, the Director of Naval Ordnance was satisfied that Royal Navy battleships were better armed than ever before, and that the 15” Mk.1 gun was once again one of the deadliest weapons afloat.
As Sumatra sailed through the English Channel on 21st June, Kronprinz was meeting her end off the north coast of Scotland. Royal George, Valiant and Hood fired on her with their 15” guns from ranges of between 17,000 and 20,000 yards. 106 shots were fired, with 19 hits registered, leaving her wrecked. She sank barely half an hour later.
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Deleted member 94680
How does this compare to the infamous OTL Admiralty trials which resulted in the "lighter, faster" shells?
Great TL - I've been lurking for ages but never got round to commenting.
I wonder how many of these small-country battleships are going to be laid up or stripped for parts once 1920s governments learn how much it costs to keep them in service.
In the comments, I don't think people should get too hung up on CV-conversions. OTL, the BC-to-CV conversion were basically forced on everyone by the WNT, and none of the converted BCs (not even Akagi or Saratoga) were as good as the purpose-build CVs that appeared in the 30s. Rather than spend a fortune gutting the RN's latest ships, better to start with a keel-up CVL and get an idea of how carriers are supposed to work.
I wonder how many of these small-country battleships are going to be laid up or stripped for parts once 1920s governments learn how much it costs to keep them in service.
In the comments, I don't think people should get too hung up on CV-conversions. OTL, the BC-to-CV conversion were basically forced on everyone by the WNT, and none of the converted BCs (not even Akagi or Saratoga) were as good as the purpose-build CVs that appeared in the 30s. Rather than spend a fortune gutting the RN's latest ships, better to start with a keel-up CVL and get an idea of how carriers are supposed to work.
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This is a different trial - the equivalent of the 1919 firings against Baden, in which Greenboy shells were shown to be far better than their predecessors.
The 15 and 18" are both 'heavy' shells, so there's no basis for comparison here. There may be other trials, but even so, the RN already has a 16" gun designed to fire a heavy shell.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Is anyone test firing the German guns to see how good / different they were with their own shells?
Deleted member 94680
I understand that this is a different Trial, but I meant more the results and the interpretation of the results by the ATL Admiralty.
Glad to hear you are enjoying it.
Plenty of them will no doubt be laid up in due course - OTL Chile, Turkey, Brazil barely kept their ships in commission.
In the story, Serbia will likely struggle - little infrastructure and the pre-dreadnoughts they have are probably as good as the dreadnoughts!
However, they perhaps have a bit more reason to keep what they have as near to operational as possible: there are potential rivalries in the Adriatic, Aegean, the Med more generally.
As we move into the 20s, there will be more on CVs, and as you say the conversions were very much a Treaty creation.
Yes, but to some degree they learned that at Stavanger the hard way!
Of equal/greater interest is probably the German propellant (essentially what the British would later call Solventless Cordite), and the construction of the guns themselves.