Deleted member 94680
Earlier, better RN Carriers it is. The RN will be starting WWII with a bunch of battlecruiser conversion carriers, I imagine.
Dread Nought but the Fury of the Seas
- Thread starter sts-200
- Start date
Earlier, better RN Carriers it is. The RN will be starting WWII with a bunch of battlecruiser conversion carriers, I imagine.
If you bulge the Renown class and up amour them between the wars you would end up basically with useful fast battleships, 29 knots or so instead of 32/33 Knots would be more than enough IMVHO.
SsgtC
Banned
Easier said than done. There is a huge difference in converting a ship still under construction and converting one that's already been in service several years
SsgtC
Banned
True. But both Courageous and Furious were massively less capable than Kaga, Akagi, Lexington or Saratoga. They carried half the aircraft, yet still cost nearly as much to convert and operate.
Deleted member 94680
But they will still be better than the hodgepodge the RN went into WWII with OTL, no? More carriers earlier will help the WAllies before the later purpose built WWII carriers come into operation.
I don't think I'm giving anything way by saying that whatever fast ships the USN build won't be the 10-14" Lexington design, or the 8-16" umpteenth redesign that was actually laid down.
Come 1920-something, every fleet will have problems, and it's entirely possible a treaty will solve them ... and create new ones.
What! Convert a perfectly good battlecruiser into a carrier for those funny little buzzing things ... they're just a passing fad.
Now a fast airship tender on the other hand...
What! Convert a perfectly good battlecruiser into a carrier for those funny little buzzing things ... they're just a passing fad.
Now a fast airship tender on the other hand...
Now you are drifting into a TL I would like to write eventually.
Deleted member 94680
What! Convert a perfectly good battlecruiser into a carrier for those funny little buzzing things ... they're just a passing fad.
Now a fast airship tender on the other hand...
Ha. If the BCs survive *WWI largely intact, then I expect this to be a largely entrenched attitude in the higher reaches of the Admiralty (maybe even a majority).
However, I was replying to the post that mentioned an alt-Jutland destruction of BCs to reflect the weaknesses of the design.
That's a big 'if' ... although they don't have to suffer the same level of damage to their reputations.
Yes, I know, and it was a weak joke.
Of course my phrase "perfectly good battlecruiser" is laughable in itself; all the ships converted under the WNT would have been mediocre (at best) capital ships.
SsgtC
Banned
Not quite all of them. Kaga was originally going to be a fast battleship capable of 27 knots and armed with 10x16.1" guns
There was an uparmored, 45,000-ton Lexington design that got to Spring Style stage. 9” belt and two 2” decks.
And be a battleship with a 11" belt of slab sided Japanese armor plate. That's the same level of belt armor that Dreadnought had, then again the IJN seemed to have a love affair with speed in this time period
OK, I'll give you that one, although the Japanese tendency to try too much on the displacement shows. The 11" belt was to have been inclined at 15d, so as good as any of Hood's sisters would have been. Even so, she'd be well advised to steer clear of 16" guns, or late-model 15"
General Chase
General Chase
After the German attack on Scarborough in December 1914, the Royal Navy sought to minimise damage to its reputation by decrying it as a sneak attack, and by announcing that the Battlecruiser Fleet would be moved south to Rosyth, from where it would be better able to protect the East Coast. In practice, the ships were not going to actively defend the coast; what mattered was the ability to intercept the enemy, if not on the way in, then on the way out.
In Germany, the negative publicity that flashed around the world caused the Kaiser to order that there be no further raids on the English coast for the time being, but the German Admiralty continued its planning for diversions and coat-trailing operations to try to draw out the Royal Navy. British reactions to a series of feints and patrol operations during December and early January convinced the German staff that the British were obtaining information on the movements of the German Fleet, perhaps from spies ashore, or from disguised spy-ships mixed in with the Dutch, Danish and British civilian vessels around the banks and shoals scattered across the North Sea.
On 18th January, German forces deployed to patrol around the Dogger Bank. Admiral Ingenohl’s High Seas Fleet would stay 50 miles to the East, ready to support the four battlecruisers of Admiral Hipper's Scouting Group. Led by the flagship SMS Seydlitz, the Derfflinger, Moltke and Goeben would sail around the Bank to the north, observing the British fishing fleet and engaging any light forces that might be encountered. If they encountered British capital ships, they would withdraw southeast, potentially drawing them onto the guns of Ingenohl's vastly more powerful force. If a few British ships could be isolated and sunk, it would give the German Navy parity in numbers, potentially opening the way for a battle that might break the blockade.
Across the North Sea, the British had forewarning of the operation, thanks to wireless intercepts that were decoded by the Admiralty's Room 40 codebreakers, and Beatty’s battlecruisers had sailed in good time to intercept the Germans as they neared the Dogger Bank. The Grand Fleet also put to sea from Scapa Flow, although primarily to support Beatty rather than to directly seek an engagement with the High Seas Fleet. In a mirror of the German plans, the British hoped that Beatty’s battlecruisers could delay or force their counterparts onto the guns of the Grand Fleet.
However, despite the strategic advantage provided by the codebreakers, Beatty did not know exactly where the Germans would be - would they sail to the north of the Dogger Bank and around to the west, or just loiter on the eastern edge?
He therefore decided it would be safest to try to intercept them to the east of the Bank and timed his sailing to be 20 miles off its north-eastern corner at 0830 on the 19th. As luck would have it, Hipper did intend to sail to the north, before doubling back around to the southeast; disrupting British patrols and allowing his light forces to stop and search any suspicious fishing vessels, while maintaining an open line of retreat to the south and east at all times.
Beatty had the stronger force, but not by as large a margin as the level of pre-war construction would suggest. Britain had completed ten battlecruisers, but half of these valuable fast vessels had been scattered across the globe in the hunt for German cruisers. HMAS Australia was in Melbourne, repairing her damage after the Bismarck Sea. HMS New Zealand and Inflexible were still on their way home from the Pacific, while Invincible was coaling and rearming at Gibraltar following her action in the South Atlantic.
Princess Royal was so near, and yet so far; as Beatty sailed, she was passing Cape Wrath, on her way to rejoin the fleet after her return from the Caribbean.
He therefore only had his flagship HMS Lion, her slightly more powerful half-sisters Queen Mary and Panther, and the smaller, slower Indefatigable and Indomitable.
At 0916, the light cruiser HMS Nottingham signalled that she had sighted smoke to the south and was turning to investigate. Confident that the enemy was out, and in the area, Beatty increased speed to 23 knots and turned his heavy ships south. Four minutes later, he ordered another increase to 25 knots, the maximum speed at which his mixed squadron could hope to keep together. Although this was nowhere near top speed for his three ‘Splendid Cats’, Indefatigable was restricted to about 26 knots, with Indomitable a little slower than that.
At 0923, Nottingham signalled, ‘Heavy enemy ships sighted to the southeast’, and within a few minutes the plumes of smoke could be seen from the bridge of HMS Lion, while German scouting destroyers were sighted by several ships. At 0928, SMS Derfflinger opened fire on HMS Nottingham from about 17,500 yards, and the cruiser also briefly came under fire from Seydlitz before her Captain beat a hasty retreat to the north.
It was a perfect, calm, cold winter's day. To the north, Admiral Hipper could see a line of smoke plumes, and Seydlitz’s lookouts soon confirmed that they were British battlecruisers. Although they were still out of range, this was as far as he could go; his orders were not to fight a superior enemy, but to lure them away to their doom. At 0931, he ordered a 14-point turn to port, turning away from the British ships and heading back south-east, towards safety and the guns of the High Seas Fleet. At the same time, he ordered his four ships to make best possible speed.
Even from an estimated 14 miles away, lookouts on the Lion and Queen Mary could clearly see the Germans turning, and Beatty ordered his ships to turn together two points to port, almost paralleling the Germans' course south-east. By 0938, the two fleets had completed their evolutions and range had dropped to about 12 miles. The abrupt turn had slowed the German ships to barely more than 18 knots, but with regulators fully open and stokers furiously feeding the furnaces, they were soon accelerating towards their top speeds. Meanwhile, the British steamed in a staggered line, unfortunately with their slowest ships furthest from the enemy.
Once the enemy’s course was clear, the Beatty ordered an increase to 26 knots, but he then thought better of it and at 0943, one of the most exciting signals in the book was hoisted to Lion's mast;
‘General Chase’.
After the German attack on Scarborough in December 1914, the Royal Navy sought to minimise damage to its reputation by decrying it as a sneak attack, and by announcing that the Battlecruiser Fleet would be moved south to Rosyth, from where it would be better able to protect the East Coast. In practice, the ships were not going to actively defend the coast; what mattered was the ability to intercept the enemy, if not on the way in, then on the way out.
In Germany, the negative publicity that flashed around the world caused the Kaiser to order that there be no further raids on the English coast for the time being, but the German Admiralty continued its planning for diversions and coat-trailing operations to try to draw out the Royal Navy. British reactions to a series of feints and patrol operations during December and early January convinced the German staff that the British were obtaining information on the movements of the German Fleet, perhaps from spies ashore, or from disguised spy-ships mixed in with the Dutch, Danish and British civilian vessels around the banks and shoals scattered across the North Sea.
On 18th January, German forces deployed to patrol around the Dogger Bank. Admiral Ingenohl’s High Seas Fleet would stay 50 miles to the East, ready to support the four battlecruisers of Admiral Hipper's Scouting Group. Led by the flagship SMS Seydlitz, the Derfflinger, Moltke and Goeben would sail around the Bank to the north, observing the British fishing fleet and engaging any light forces that might be encountered. If they encountered British capital ships, they would withdraw southeast, potentially drawing them onto the guns of Ingenohl's vastly more powerful force. If a few British ships could be isolated and sunk, it would give the German Navy parity in numbers, potentially opening the way for a battle that might break the blockade.
Across the North Sea, the British had forewarning of the operation, thanks to wireless intercepts that were decoded by the Admiralty's Room 40 codebreakers, and Beatty’s battlecruisers had sailed in good time to intercept the Germans as they neared the Dogger Bank. The Grand Fleet also put to sea from Scapa Flow, although primarily to support Beatty rather than to directly seek an engagement with the High Seas Fleet. In a mirror of the German plans, the British hoped that Beatty’s battlecruisers could delay or force their counterparts onto the guns of the Grand Fleet.
However, despite the strategic advantage provided by the codebreakers, Beatty did not know exactly where the Germans would be - would they sail to the north of the Dogger Bank and around to the west, or just loiter on the eastern edge?
He therefore decided it would be safest to try to intercept them to the east of the Bank and timed his sailing to be 20 miles off its north-eastern corner at 0830 on the 19th. As luck would have it, Hipper did intend to sail to the north, before doubling back around to the southeast; disrupting British patrols and allowing his light forces to stop and search any suspicious fishing vessels, while maintaining an open line of retreat to the south and east at all times.
Beatty had the stronger force, but not by as large a margin as the level of pre-war construction would suggest. Britain had completed ten battlecruisers, but half of these valuable fast vessels had been scattered across the globe in the hunt for German cruisers. HMAS Australia was in Melbourne, repairing her damage after the Bismarck Sea. HMS New Zealand and Inflexible were still on their way home from the Pacific, while Invincible was coaling and rearming at Gibraltar following her action in the South Atlantic.
Princess Royal was so near, and yet so far; as Beatty sailed, she was passing Cape Wrath, on her way to rejoin the fleet after her return from the Caribbean.
He therefore only had his flagship HMS Lion, her slightly more powerful half-sisters Queen Mary and Panther, and the smaller, slower Indefatigable and Indomitable.
At 0916, the light cruiser HMS Nottingham signalled that she had sighted smoke to the south and was turning to investigate. Confident that the enemy was out, and in the area, Beatty increased speed to 23 knots and turned his heavy ships south. Four minutes later, he ordered another increase to 25 knots, the maximum speed at which his mixed squadron could hope to keep together. Although this was nowhere near top speed for his three ‘Splendid Cats’, Indefatigable was restricted to about 26 knots, with Indomitable a little slower than that.
At 0923, Nottingham signalled, ‘Heavy enemy ships sighted to the southeast’, and within a few minutes the plumes of smoke could be seen from the bridge of HMS Lion, while German scouting destroyers were sighted by several ships. At 0928, SMS Derfflinger opened fire on HMS Nottingham from about 17,500 yards, and the cruiser also briefly came under fire from Seydlitz before her Captain beat a hasty retreat to the north.
It was a perfect, calm, cold winter's day. To the north, Admiral Hipper could see a line of smoke plumes, and Seydlitz’s lookouts soon confirmed that they were British battlecruisers. Although they were still out of range, this was as far as he could go; his orders were not to fight a superior enemy, but to lure them away to their doom. At 0931, he ordered a 14-point turn to port, turning away from the British ships and heading back south-east, towards safety and the guns of the High Seas Fleet. At the same time, he ordered his four ships to make best possible speed.
Even from an estimated 14 miles away, lookouts on the Lion and Queen Mary could clearly see the Germans turning, and Beatty ordered his ships to turn together two points to port, almost paralleling the Germans' course south-east. By 0938, the two fleets had completed their evolutions and range had dropped to about 12 miles. The abrupt turn had slowed the German ships to barely more than 18 knots, but with regulators fully open and stokers furiously feeding the furnaces, they were soon accelerating towards their top speeds. Meanwhile, the British steamed in a staggered line, unfortunately with their slowest ships furthest from the enemy.
Once the enemy’s course was clear, the Beatty ordered an increase to 26 knots, but he then thought better of it and at 0943, one of the most exciting signals in the book was hoisted to Lion's mast;
‘General Chase’.
SsgtC
Banned
Why do I get the feeling that Beatty will not live long enough to regret this decision?
Aren't those still being built though? Hopefully all the "speed is armor" idiots will get killed or sacked TTL. 6" armor won't even be enough against heavy cruisers.
FBKampfer
Banned
I hope they stick around. The best thing for the world would be to have the RN go bonkers and bankrupt themselves trying to get 35kn out of a battlecruiser without leaving it unarmored.