Who is the leader og Germany right now?
An ugly coalition (literally and figuratively!) of military leaders and politicians of the centre and mild left.
Slightly rearranging the timeframes of OTL, I'd picture the likes of Ebert and von Kuhlmann as the obvious candidates for a civilian figurehead and for lead negotiator.
 
This is pretty obviously a political decision with probably minimal input from the various militaries.

For Germany
- It keeps these ships out of the hands of the Allies
- It brings in a small amount of hard currency that is probably useful
- It is a middle finger to the allies that can be spun for positive moral effect on the home front
- It shows that Germany is not without options
- If it causes the negotiations to break down then its a propaganda victory for Germany spinning it as the Allies going back to war while Germany is unilaterally disarming.

For the Dutch
- It is a way of expressing displeasure for the Allied blockade.
- At probably little better than scrap value, it's cheap and the ships can always be scrapped to recover the cost if they don't work out.
- Its doing a favour for the Germans that will give the Dutch a marker that they can cash in later.
- And hey maybe they will be useful in some capacity.

This may also be part of a larger deal that is being kept under wraps until a later date.
An excellent summary
 

Deleted member 94680

Perhaps the Dutch try to operate one BB and one BC in a squadron with the other two in reserve/spare parts?
Cuts the manpower needs in half.

Must admit, that’s how I envisaged the Dutch would go once I got my head round the whole purchase idea.

The more worn ships can be maintenance stock for the better vessels, allowing the Dutch to operate them until their navy gets up to size.
 
Ok, so:
Command of the sea (and most specifically the trade routes in the Atlantic, and to India and Asia) were the absolute top priority for British defence policy in this period (and for 100+ years before).

Ok, is a feit accompli that is a must not a should for the Empire as a whole.

Nothing could be allowed to threaten those links - the wealth of the Empire depended upon them.
For example, at various times over that period, France and/or Italy were allies of Britain, but that didn't stop Britain wanting to maintain a powerful fleet in the Med to cover any eventuality.

Ok, I see same size of possible threats

In the story, the potential for a Dutch force in the Indian Ocean or North Sea is something the British would take very seriously. In addition, the Dutch have shown considerable willingness to trade with the Germans, so they can't be regarded as entirely friendly.

Ok, key point, although neutral without even a subtle obedience to the empire its tricky.

Anything that might threaten imperial trade is of concern. The ships might not be an immediate problem in 1918, but it's a potential threat that they can't ignore in years to come.

Yeah, definitely, and making link with this:

This is pretty obviously a political decision with probably minimal input from the various militaries.

For Germany
- It keeps these ships out of the hands of the Allies
- It brings in a small amount of hard currency that is probably useful
- It is a middle finger to the allies that can be spun for positive moral effect on the home front
- It shows that Germany is not without options
- If it causes the negotiations to break down then its a propaganda victory for Germany spinning it as the Allies going back to war while Germany is unilaterally disarming.

For the Dutch
- It is a way of expressing displeasure for the Allied blockade.
- At probably little better than scrap value, it's cheap and the ships can always be scrapped to recover the cost if they don't work out.
- Its doing a favour for the Germans that will give the Dutch a marker that they can cash in later.
- And hey maybe they will be useful in some capacity.

This may also be part of a larger deal that is being kept under wraps until a later date.
An excellent summary

I clearly come to understand your point. Thanks. Now is a more interesting game :evilsmile: ;)
 
do i remember rightly that German battleships had less accomodation or were fitted more for short trips into north sea rather than longer cruises and that the crew tended to live mostly on shore.
 
I reed that and other versions of the story, one is because the British saw that the onboard accommodations were cramped they assumed that the Germans rest on shore, the other comes near as follows because the German ships were better protected everyone assumed that the trade was accommodations.
 
German crews did tend to spend their time ashore, going aboard when the ship sailed and not fully berthing aboard. This let them turn the space into protection. The Dutch might have got themselves some ships that if they send them off to the Far East might take some time getting there but would be fine for the region. You could base them, have them sail around, showing the flag and then come home. They're not cruising the indian ocean or escorting ships between Holland and the DEI. Some aircon is going to need to be fitted though otherwise those ships are going to be ovens!
 
Perhaps the Dutch try to operate one BB and one BC in a squadron with the other two in reserve/spare parts?
Cuts the manpower needs in half.

In that case, I think that the reasonable path should be sent the battlecruisers to the East and left the battleships at home.

Retaking my interesting debate with Not James Stockdale, I have reflected about all we have discussed to date, and reviewing all interwar and IIWW capital ships, I finally come to understand your point. I was blinded by the treaty limitations, but now I see that what you wanted to tell me was that the third generation, by their size and caliber, would have to be of at least 45k ton, basically Hood's size, and that would be the next standard.
 
And because all of that the treaty limitations were created, because Britain wasn't ready for a so huge step ( financially that is). Now we got to review the limitations because now I think that 45k ton is rather a compromise size, 55k ton normal load should be better right?
 
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Peace
Peace

On the 30th December 1917, the war finally came to an end, as representatives of the Allies and Central Powers signed the Treaty of Stockholm.

Germany lost all her colonies, although not all to the supposedly victories Allies. German New Guinea, New Pomerania and the islands of the Bismarck Archipelago went to Australia. Territories in China and the northern Pacific went to Japan, while Britain and France gained all the African colonies except for an isolated inland region of German East Africa, which German militias had managed to hold until the end of the war.
In a separate treaty, signed in 1918, the German government would give up rights to this worthless patch of land to the newly formed League of Nations, which along with a series of settlements in the East helped the war-ravaged nation to secure American financing.

Alsace and Lorraine were returned to France, although following a great deal of pressure from the other Allies, this was in lieu of many of the substantial damages claimed by the French government.
In these financial terms, the Treaty did not come close to answering all the demands or expectations. The French had wanted to make Germany to pay for the war, and although such sentiments certainly existed elsewhere, both the British and Americans could see that this was utterly impractical. Given the circumstances of the peace treaty, the fact that the Germans agreed to participate in an international commission to ‘compensate states for damage to civilian property due to German actions on land or the high seas’, was considered to be a remarkable achievement.

The timing was fortunate for the Allies, as the outbreak of riots and rebellions in Russia government during the final days of the Treaty negotiations could have significantly weakened their hand. British and American negotiators pressed for a quick deal, before Germany signed any form of peace with the Bolsheviks. Fear that the Germans might still be able to turn their entire army west was very real, as was the concern that morale at home might collapse if the war were continued.
Even in early December, people were becoming accustomed to the idea of peace. It wasn’t all over by Christmas, but military, industrial and economic planning in Britain and America was already beginning to move away from wartime thinking.

For the German government, the threat of revolution within their own country was still very real, particularly now that ‘another’ socialist revolution was occurring in Russia. In any case, there would be hard times to come. Germany’s resources and manpower were depleted, and the military position in the East was still unresolved (there was a ceasefire in place, but the western Allies were in a poor position to enforce terms on either the Bolsheviks or the Germans).

The naval position was much clearer. The German ships held at Rosyth would be, in effect, sold to the Allies. No actual money would change hands, it was a question of writing off compensation payments, although that didn’t stop the Germans complaining about the price. The Allies agreed to divide the ships amongst themselves and scrap them, and hence the Germans benefitted from little more than scrap value. The Kaiserin went to France, Konig to the USA, Konig Albert to Italy, while the rest went to Britain.

Numerous older German vessels would also be scrapped, but this would happen in Germany under allied supervision. The German Navy would not be permitted to lay down any new capital ships for ten years, meaning the first could not be started until 1928. Even then, no German ship would be permitted to carry a gun with a calibre greater than that of the smallest main armament fitted to a Royal Navy capital ship (12” at the time the Treaty was signed).

The British thinking was that this did not entirely humiliate Germany, as it left her with a sufficient naval force to keep any communist Russian force in check in the Baltic, and in due course to allow her to send token forces around the world to assist in League mandated operations against piracy, or the remnants of the slave trade. However, with a small number of older and less capable ships, they would have no hope of ever challenging the Royal Navy again.
 
Could you give us a map of Europe with these new borders in your next update? The Germans are in an interesting position, this is a TL I'm sure I will follow until it's concluded.
 
Numerous older German vessels would also be scrapped, but this would happen in Germany under allied supervision. The German Navy would not be permitted to lay down any new capital ships for ten years, meaning the first could not be started until 1928.

I assume any hulls already laid down but not completed would be scrapped? Otherwise someone is going to be asking a few questions at the Admiralty
 
I assume any hulls already laid down but not completed would be scrapped? Otherwise someone is going to be asking a few questions at the Admiralty

Well there is a ban on new construction for ten years so providing no further work is done it would suit the British for the Germans to spend money preserving obsolete hulls for the next decade rather starting clean sheet designs when they can.
 
Well there is a ban on new construction for ten years so providing no further work is done it would suit the British for the Germans to spend money preserving obsolete hulls for the next decade rather starting clean sheet designs when they can.
Actually, the term was lay down, not new construction ;)
 
In any case, the general terms are quite mild, because just specify the max caliber and what time they have to wait for new ships...XD

What could go wrong?;)
Well at the very minimum the Germans will be able to build 13.5" gunned ships in 1928 and it's fairly likely they'll be able to build 15" gunned ships and even if they can't I'd imagine the 13.5" guns they build will be very powerful guns for their size
 
In any case, the general terms are quite mild, because just specify the max caliber and what time they have to wait for new ships...XD

What could go wrong?;)

That is an interesting question. Given that they are restricted in gun size, I wonder if they will try to increase gun caliber? IIRC typical capital ship guns were in the range of 40-50 calibers. Most USN guns were either 45 calibers or 50 calibers. The eight inch gun on the heavy cruisers was a 55 caliber weapon, but that was unusual. I wonder if the Germans will try to build a 12"/55 or 60 caliber gun for improved penetration. For that matter, maybe they will look into squeeze bore or discarding sabot concepts. The problem there is unlike a tank, where the target is small enough and densely packed enough you do not need an explosive filler, that probably isn't true with battleships.
 
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