Dowries in 15th/16th century Europe

What was the dowry system like in the 15th and 16th centuries? Was the dowry given lesser or greater depending on whether or not it was the heir to the throne or a lesser son? And also what was given as a dowry? Money? Titles? Or even land?
 
It depends a lot of the region (I'm not sure what's follows is true for all Western Europe) and social classes concerned.

Generally, all of that could be concerned : for what matters to the lower classes, animals and/or lands, sometimes tools. Money was more present in middle and upper classes, especially in towns.

As for nobles, the rule was the hypogamy, the woman being often socially (or at least considered as such) inferior. It generally meant that marrying the heir could be more costly.

Titles, however, weren't subject to dowries, because the bride didn't held these usually, and even in this case it was far from being the rule. Brittany exemple is quite telling, with the duchess keeping the title and power that was transmitted only to her son.

As for aristocracy and high nobility, things were more complex : usually, unions were a diplomatic feature with exchanges corresponding rather to mutual needs and ambitions than something formalized (especially unions made to cement an alliance, a peace or other agreements).
Money was still a great part of aristocratic dowries, but diplomatic concerns played as well.
 
Sorry for not responding sooner. I didn't receive a notification that someone had responded to this. Or rather my phone didn't show any note about this.

Alright so then to continue the Brittany example what was Claude's dowry when she married Francis? Or was it Brittany itself since I know that Louis refused to allow the title be passed to Renee after Claude's marriage in order to tie Brittany to France and keep France from being surrounded by enemies given that Anne intended to marry Claude to a Hapsburg to secure Brittany's independence. If her scheme had succeeded what would she have given to the Austrian's as Claude's dowry as I wouldn't expect Louis to pay for the marriage.

What was the normal bride price for marrying the French and English heirs?

Actually while I'm on this topic does anyone know how much Ferdinand paid as Catherine's dowry for her marriage to Arthur?
 
Alright so then to continue the Brittany example what was Claude's dowry when she married Francis?
Counties of Blois, Soissons, Asti; lordships of Coucy. In fact, the revenues and usus rather than the land and titles themselves, from the king. (Incidentally these were the lands that Louis XII had before he set on the throne)
From the queen, 100 000 écus (a somewhat reduced ammount) that are to be payed back if Claude was to die.

Or was it Brittany itself
No, that's what I tried to point. Brittany wasn't the dowary because the title or the rule passed to the husband as an usus, and that according the marriage contract should have been trusted not to Francis III (then Dauphin of France) but to his younger brother., with the usus still taken by Francis I.

At this point, Brittany is still the demesne of Anne, not the king or her daughters. Of course, Valois influence on the peninsula was real, but couldn't have legally turned to a dowry.

since I know that Louis refused to allow the title be passed to Renee after Claude's marriage in order to tie Brittany to France and keep France
That's less a scheme than the diplomatic consequence of the Mad War and Anne union with Louis XII, with Brittany definitely acknowledged Valois influence and had to obtain the agreement of Valois on such unions.

What was the normal bride price for marrying the French and English heirs?
Dowry wasn't a price rather than giving, usually, the bride its hold on the common management. Even if technically (and legally) the man had the upper hand, the relationship was more complex and dowaries could be trusted to a widow for exemple.

That said, you miss the point : when it comes to aristocracy you didn't have scale or rule of thumb, but more contextual tractations (arguably it was the case everywhere, but for lower classes, the context was less proteiform allowing then a "standardisation")

Actually while I'm on this topic does anyone know how much Ferdinand paid as Catherine's dowry for her marriage to Arthur?
As it's told (but should be checked) by Varillas :

- 200 000 écus were required, but eventually he accepted 120 000 guilders. (Assuming 30 sous represent an écu, and that a guilder is said to equal 12 sous...the ammount may be roughly divided by 4,5 but don't quote me on this)
- In exchange, the duchy of Milan was to be trusted to Louis XII (while still being part of the empire)
 
Counties of Blois, Soissons, Asti; lordships of Coucy. In fact, the revenues and usus rather than the land and titles themselves, from the king.

Was this something that her father had previously decided to give as her dowry or was it dependent on who exactly she was marrying? What was the original amount her mother was going to give?

Though I'm not clear on what an usus is a quick google search said that usus means usage, long established rule, custom, practice.

At this point, Brittany is still the demesne of Anne, not the king or her daughters. Of course, Valois influence on the peninsula was real, but couldn't have legally turned to a dowry.

Sorry forgot that at the time she was getting married her mother was still the Duchess. Do know where I could see the marriage contract? Though I'm guessing that its probably in French. How likely was it that the contract would have been followed to the letter when it came to the passing of Brittany to Henri? It was Henri right?

That said, you miss the point : when it comes to aristocracy you didn't have scale or rule of thumb, but more contextual tractations (arguably it was the case everywhere, but for lower classes, the context was less proteiform allowing then a "standardisation")

So the devil was in the details then. Details and the situation governed the dowry for both the lower class as well as the upper class. And the dowries for the upper class were more fluid. All right I've written that down. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I should definitely take more time to read and more importantly contemplate the info you give me. I seem to be apologizing a lot right now. :(

And thanks for giving me Catherine's dowry as well. So any more information you can give me about dowries would be appreciated. Don't really know what else to ask about the subject right now.
 
Was this something that her father had previously decided to give as her dowry or was it dependent on who exactly she was marrying?
I think that, there's as well, it's dependent from the context. Louis XII doesn't have a son to inherit, and Francis of Angoulême being his heir, he tried to make his future early reign as smooth as possible on what mattered these.

What was the original amount her mother was going to give?
I may have been misleading : I meant reduced compared to what may have been possible. 100 000 écus is a really important ammount objectivly but is more comparable to one of the main bishopries of the kingdom rather than a royal marriage.

Though I'm not clear on what an usus is a quick google search said that usus means usage, long established rule, custom, practice.
Ah sorry, I meant usufruct.

Do know where I could see the marriage contract? Though I'm guessing that its probably in French.
No idea, to be frank. I took informations from Brantôme.

How likely was it that the contract would have been followed to the letter when it came to the passing of Brittany to Henri? It was Henri right?
It was Henri, right, but there was little doubt the contract would have been disregarded on this matter.

I should correct my previous post, and point that you had an even more important dowry for Claude for what mattered his potential union with Charles (future Charles V) : I won't list all of these, but it included more or less the former Burgundian inheritency. It should be noted that these propositions were made after he agreed with Francois of Angoulême that he shall give Claude to him (so basically, Louis XII was bullshitting Maximilian).

I seem to be apologizing a lot right now. :(
There's no need for that, really.

And thanks for giving me Catherine's dowry as well. So any more information you can give me about dowries would be appreciated. Don't really know what else to ask about the subject right now.
Catherine? Crap...I think I mixed Claude/Maximilian and Catherine/Ferdinand dowry there...Sorry about it, I should have be more cautious and read more precisely (I don't really know how I managed that, to be honest).

According Wikipedia :

A dowry of 200,000 crowns had been agreed, and half was paid shortly after the marriage.
Apparently, the dower (gave to her, then) was to be 1/3 of the revenues of Wales
 
I think that, there's as well, it's dependent from the context. Louis XII doesn't have a son to inherit, and Francis of Angoulême being his heir, he tried to make his future early reign as smooth as possible on what mattered these.

Huh, this is interesting. Basically Claude's dowry was a good way to prop up Francis and show everyone that yes this was his heir.

I meant reduced compared to what may have been possible.

So what would have been the amount her mother could have given for a royal marriage? I think you said that what her mother gave was similar to what would have been given for bishoprics. Did that say anything about her mothers feelings on this marriage? Or was there simply no need for a larger dowry on her mothers side do to what her father had given?

It should be noted that these propositions were made after he agreed with Francois of Angoulême that he shall give Claude to him (so basically, Louis XII was bullshitting Maximilian).

I will admit that I liked this part. Louis XII was just leading him on. But I would expect that no one actually thought that Claude would marry Maximilian.

While we're on the Habsburgs what Joanna's dowry when she married Philip?

There's no need for that, really.

I just felt bad for misunderstanding.

Apparently, the dower (gave to her, then) was to be 1/3 of the revenues of Wales

Huh, how much revenue did Wales make then? Since 200,000 must have amounted to a goodly amount. Also no worries over your own misunderstanding.
 
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