Double Challenge: Race Relations
- Thread starter tom
- Start date
Better race relations:
How about a more equitable and effective Reconstruction, for starters, where the federal govt effectively and competently defends the rights of blacks and empowers them politically and economically in the ex-Confederacy, while undermining the power of the Klan and other white supremacist terrorists and destroying any image of a set black vs white racial conflict so that the majority of Southern whites are able to see ex-slaves as partners and friends with whom to build a peaceful future together, instead of OTL many whites being taken in by KKK-manifested fears of black rampant criminality and desire to revenge themselves on all whites. There'll also need to be a greater acceptance of blacks in the North and other parts of the country, too, so let's facilitate some sorta effective federal govt civil rights intervention in northern states to outlaw and undermine racial discrimination which OTL had been enacted by some northern states and major cities. Such federal laws would've also required the undermining of popular media stereotypes of blacks as lazy, shiftless, criminally-inclined brutes with uncontrollable sexual appetites. Another important hypothetical which has been previously discussed is in integrating the entire US armed forces so that a bond of brotherhood could be formed by men of all race serving, fighting and dying alongside each other. Possibly another war against a foreign power as soon as possible after 1866, such as over the 1873 SS VIRGINIUS affair against Spain as speculated in the previous board, would've galvanised collective American opinion and endeavour among all citizens towards a common end, thereby forging a greater degree of mutual respect among ppl of different races. These listed changes IMHO would've had a tremendous positive impact on the hist of American race relations post-CW.
In addition, there'd have to be other changes re other minority groups, esp Indians, Hispanics and Asians. How about the development of a more inclusive frontier ethos in the popular media, combined with the US govt's more equitable treatment of native American tribes (ie properly providing surrendered Indians on reservations with sufficient rations instead of OTL Indian agents virtually starving Plains tribes with bad food and compelling them to go back on the warpath) and passage of effective anti-discrimination laws to outlaw discriminatory behaviour against ppl of any and all races ?
How about a more equitable and effective Reconstruction, for starters, where the federal govt effectively and competently defends the rights of blacks and empowers them politically and economically in the ex-Confederacy, while undermining the power of the Klan and other white supremacist terrorists and destroying any image of a set black vs white racial conflict so that the majority of Southern whites are able to see ex-slaves as partners and friends with whom to build a peaceful future together, instead of OTL many whites being taken in by KKK-manifested fears of black rampant criminality and desire to revenge themselves on all whites. There'll also need to be a greater acceptance of blacks in the North and other parts of the country, too, so let's facilitate some sorta effective federal govt civil rights intervention in northern states to outlaw and undermine racial discrimination which OTL had been enacted by some northern states and major cities. Such federal laws would've also required the undermining of popular media stereotypes of blacks as lazy, shiftless, criminally-inclined brutes with uncontrollable sexual appetites. Another important hypothetical which has been previously discussed is in integrating the entire US armed forces so that a bond of brotherhood could be formed by men of all race serving, fighting and dying alongside each other. Possibly another war against a foreign power as soon as possible after 1866, such as over the 1873 SS VIRGINIUS affair against Spain as speculated in the previous board, would've galvanised collective American opinion and endeavour among all citizens towards a common end, thereby forging a greater degree of mutual respect among ppl of different races. These listed changes IMHO would've had a tremendous positive impact on the hist of American race relations post-CW.
In addition, there'd have to be other changes re other minority groups, esp Indians, Hispanics and Asians. How about the development of a more inclusive frontier ethos in the popular media, combined with the US govt's more equitable treatment of native American tribes (ie properly providing surrendered Indians on reservations with sufficient rations instead of OTL Indian agents virtually starving Plains tribes with bad food and compelling them to go back on the warpath) and passage of effective anti-discrimination laws to outlaw discriminatory behaviour against ppl of any and all races ?
NapoleonXIV
Banned
OTOH
Lincoln not assassinated and therefore proceeds with a plan favored before the war to send all blacks to Liberia. Radical Republicans blocked in Congress to a greater extent than even in OTL so that passage of 13, 14, 15 amendments to Constitution are blocked. Lincoln does not run for third term so Johnson, who was manifestly hostile to blacks in favor of poor whites, becomes President in 1868. Plans to export blacks are abandoned as expensive and impossible,.Southern state legislatures devise legal arrangements with former slaves so oppressive that the federal government permits the return of indentured servitude as a reform measure. By 1875 de facto slavery is reestablished in the South. Northern and Western states pass laws against black immigration and residency and the Southern states are officially recognised as ‘black’ states with a special place in the Union.
In 1880 the introduction of Federal legislation which will dispossess and deport to black states all remaining Blacks in non-Southern states is introduced in Congress.
The free blacks in bordering states with large populations have been threatened with this for years and have armed and readied themselves as have many of the indentured blacks.
The South explodes in a rebellion notable mainly for the atrocities on both sides. It ends a year later after millions of deaths on both sides with the Secession of Mississippi and Alabama to form a black republic supported by foreign intervention. White based reform movements remaining in the US are characterized as traitors and the Constitution is suspended in 1883 with mass arrests and executions of all dissidents following
The US continues into the 20thc with an increasing reputation as an international pariah due to savage oppression of all minority ethnic groups and the stated policy of genocide toward all Native Americans, who are wiped out by 1906. European immigration ends, being diverted to Central and South America. There is a increasing immigration of US residents to this area, back to Europe, Asia and even ironically, to Africa. The US economy becomes increasingly backward and agrarian.
The collapse of the cotton market in 1916 is followed rapidly by a general embargo imposed by the Greater European Co-Dominium. The consequent depression causes widespread suffering and mass starvation and leads to the overthrow of the government by a Communist Revolution in 1918. The repudiation of all debts by this new government is not taken well by the rest of the world. Texas, New Mexico and Arizona are occupied by Mexico in 1919, The UK sends troops through Canada to take the Midwest and the East. California is taken by the Japanese etc. By 1921, the US ceases to exist.
Lincoln not assassinated and therefore proceeds with a plan favored before the war to send all blacks to Liberia. Radical Republicans blocked in Congress to a greater extent than even in OTL so that passage of 13, 14, 15 amendments to Constitution are blocked. Lincoln does not run for third term so Johnson, who was manifestly hostile to blacks in favor of poor whites, becomes President in 1868. Plans to export blacks are abandoned as expensive and impossible,.Southern state legislatures devise legal arrangements with former slaves so oppressive that the federal government permits the return of indentured servitude as a reform measure. By 1875 de facto slavery is reestablished in the South. Northern and Western states pass laws against black immigration and residency and the Southern states are officially recognised as ‘black’ states with a special place in the Union.
In 1880 the introduction of Federal legislation which will dispossess and deport to black states all remaining Blacks in non-Southern states is introduced in Congress.
The free blacks in bordering states with large populations have been threatened with this for years and have armed and readied themselves as have many of the indentured blacks.
The South explodes in a rebellion notable mainly for the atrocities on both sides. It ends a year later after millions of deaths on both sides with the Secession of Mississippi and Alabama to form a black republic supported by foreign intervention. White based reform movements remaining in the US are characterized as traitors and the Constitution is suspended in 1883 with mass arrests and executions of all dissidents following
The US continues into the 20thc with an increasing reputation as an international pariah due to savage oppression of all minority ethnic groups and the stated policy of genocide toward all Native Americans, who are wiped out by 1906. European immigration ends, being diverted to Central and South America. There is a increasing immigration of US residents to this area, back to Europe, Asia and even ironically, to Africa. The US economy becomes increasingly backward and agrarian.
The collapse of the cotton market in 1916 is followed rapidly by a general embargo imposed by the Greater European Co-Dominium. The consequent depression causes widespread suffering and mass starvation and leads to the overthrow of the government by a Communist Revolution in 1918. The repudiation of all debts by this new government is not taken well by the rest of the world. Texas, New Mexico and Arizona are occupied by Mexico in 1919, The UK sends troops through Canada to take the Midwest and the East. California is taken by the Japanese etc. By 1921, the US ceases to exist.
Oh, another factor in my specualtions for a more racially equitable US would entail the essential nature of strong anti-lynching legislation enacted ASAP during the Reconstruction yrs, supported by an activist federal govt.
Michael E Johnson
Banned
A possible path towards better race relations would have been the more thorough destruction of the Southern planter class that had been the Confederate leadership and rose again to lead the "new" South .This class was able to continue its position in power by keeping poor withes in check through the practice of exploiting racism.It was made clear to poor whites that even though they were dirt poor they were still "better" because they were white.If the former Confederate leadership had been treated as traitors,as they richly deserved,and faced a combination of treason charges and disenfranchisment who knows? Maybe with a President Hannibal Hamlin or Thaddeus Stevens 
plus a Civil War that was a little longer and bloodier for the North?
PS love that scenario NapoleonXIV -ultimate poetic justice for the US. Of course I have always thought that if the US had really ever gone fascist in the early 20th century the South would have taken the opportunity to murder its black popluace-as it apparently did in HT's In the Presence of Mine Enemies under Nazi occupation.
plus a Civil War that was a little longer and bloodier for the North?PS love that scenario NapoleonXIV -ultimate poetic justice for the US. Of course I have always thought that if the US had really ever gone fascist in the early 20th century the South would have taken the opportunity to murder its black popluace-as it apparently did in HT's In the Presence of Mine Enemies under Nazi occupation.
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"If the former Confederate leadership had been treated as traitors,as they richly deserved,and faced a combination of treason charges and disenfranchisment who knows?"
You don't HAVE to believe that secession is automatically unconstitutional and treasonous just b/c the South tried to secede to preserve slavery. WI the US went fascist and big hunks of the non-South decided to secede?
Of course, by all means hang Bedford Forrest. That'll probably get rid of the Klan, or keep it as a social club/prank-playing society (what it was originally, before it became a terrorist group).
Now, onto some solutions...
For better race relations in the South, keep the black militias and make sure that when the Federals leave, they DO NOT take the militias' weapons. They did in OTL and the militias made various "last stands" with what they had; if they've got much better firepower, the Klan and maybe even the state gov'ts would think twice about causing trouble.
Keep the "40 acres and a mule" promise too. Breaking up the estates of the planter class and giving it to their verifiable slaves would probably the only moral way of doing "reparations for slavery" b/c then you'd know exactly who wronged who. This not only makes the blacks a whole lot more powerful economically, but greatly weakens the people who liked to stir up race resentment for their own foul purposes.
See my original comment about Bedford Forrest.
You don't HAVE to believe that secession is automatically unconstitutional and treasonous just b/c the South tried to secede to preserve slavery. WI the US went fascist and big hunks of the non-South decided to secede?
Of course, by all means hang Bedford Forrest. That'll probably get rid of the Klan, or keep it as a social club/prank-playing society (what it was originally, before it became a terrorist group).
Now, onto some solutions...
For better race relations in the South, keep the black militias and make sure that when the Federals leave, they DO NOT take the militias' weapons. They did in OTL and the militias made various "last stands" with what they had; if they've got much better firepower, the Klan and maybe even the state gov'ts would think twice about causing trouble.
Keep the "40 acres and a mule" promise too. Breaking up the estates of the planter class and giving it to their verifiable slaves would probably the only moral way of doing "reparations for slavery" b/c then you'd know exactly who wronged who. This not only makes the blacks a whole lot more powerful economically, but greatly weakens the people who liked to stir up race resentment for their own foul purposes.
See my original comment about Bedford Forrest.
"would have taken the opportunity to murder its black popluace"
Why murder? Re-enslavement who seem more practical; after all, the Confederates didn't want to kill blacks, just make them work in the cotton fields. Plus it's not much of a step below heavily-indebted sharecropping and terrorism by the Klan.
Why murder? Re-enslavement who seem more practical; after all, the Confederates didn't want to kill blacks, just make them work in the cotton fields. Plus it's not much of a step below heavily-indebted sharecropping and terrorism by the Klan.
Michael E Johnson said:If the former Confederate leadership had been treated as traitors,as they richly deserved,and faced a combination of treason charges and disenfranchisment who knows? Maybe with a President Hannibal Hamlin or Thaddeus Stevens
LoL, things would have been BETTER after this?? I think not!
Hamlin and Stevens were radicals and their Presidencies, followed by the "punishment they [the Confederate leaders] so richly deserved" would have caused race relations in the United States to be absolutely horrible. As soon as nuts like Hamlin and Stevens (excuse me, *cough*, I mean "radicals," *cough*) were out of office and the troops out of the South, expect massive slayings of blacks by vengeful whites.
Matt Quinn said:
Actually, w/o N.B. Forrest, the KKK would have been more violent. Don't forget that no matter how crazy Forrest was, he was the man that disbanded the KKK when they became too violent in 1869. The KKK of the 20th Century, founded in 1915 by William Simmons, is by no means the KKK of N.B. Forrest in the immediate post-war years.
Ah...
"Don't forget that no matter how crazy Forrest was, he was the man that disbanded the KKK when they became too violent in 1869"
He did?
In Pat Buchanan's The Death of the West he cites a source somewhere about Bedford Forrest coming to his senses and how he "thrust the Klan away" when he realized it was inimical to the South's best interest.
However, Pat is a bit inflexible about certain matters; he's prone to defend US heroes (in the Civil War, that could be Unionists like Grant or Confederates like Lee) stubbornly rather than admitting that perhaps they had feet of clay (or, in the case of Forrest, a sizable portion of his body). That's why I treated the book with a grain of salt on that matter.
I thought the Federals suppressed the Klan by revoking habeaus corpus and using military force.
"Don't forget that no matter how crazy Forrest was, he was the man that disbanded the KKK when they became too violent in 1869"
He did?
In Pat Buchanan's The Death of the West he cites a source somewhere about Bedford Forrest coming to his senses and how he "thrust the Klan away" when he realized it was inimical to the South's best interest.
However, Pat is a bit inflexible about certain matters; he's prone to defend US heroes (in the Civil War, that could be Unionists like Grant or Confederates like Lee) stubbornly rather than admitting that perhaps they had feet of clay (or, in the case of Forrest, a sizable portion of his body). That's why I treated the book with a grain of salt on that matter.
I thought the Federals suppressed the Klan by revoking habeaus corpus and using military force.
Matt Quinn said:
Yes. Forrest served as the first leader of the original Ku Klux Klan. He disbanded the organization in 1869 when its members became increasingly violent. From 1868 to 1870, while federal occupation troops were being withdrawn from the southern states and radical regimes replaced with Democratic administrations, the Klan was increasingly dominated by the rougher elements in the population. The local organizations, called klaverns, became so uncontrollable and violent that the Grand Wizard, former Confederate general Nathan B. Forrest, officially disbanded the Klan in 1869.
The unofficial KKK actions were supressed in 1871, despite the fact that the local groups no longer had anything to do with the KKK, but were, instead, operating on their own. The KKK wasn't refounded until 1915 under a former Minister named William Simmons.