Dornier 26 and BV138

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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Deleted member 1487

I wasn't able to find any thread directly dealing with this aircraft, so I thought we could expand some of the discussion we have had about the best naval reconnaissance option for the Battle of the Atlantic for Germany.
Some other threads on this subject:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=254104&highlight=do26
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=254404&highlight=do26

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_26#Specifications_-_Do_26V6
Performance
Maximum speed: 324 km/h (175 kn, 201 mph)
Range: 7,100 km (3,834 nmi, 4,412 mi)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blohm_&_Voss_BV_138
Performance

Maximum speed: 275 km/h @ 6,000 m (171 mph @ 19,700 ft)
Range: 5,000 km (3,105 mi)
Service ceiling: 5,000 m (16,400 ft)
Rate of climb: 220 m/min (729 ft/min)
Wing loading: 114.2 kg/m² (23.4 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: 0.106 kW/kg (0.064 hp/lb)
(Range is too high here, it was actually about 2200 miles overloaded with fuel)

Both of these aircraft were viable options for long range naval reconnaissance and were in fact used in small numbers in that role.
What if the Do26 was in full production for this role by 1940 and the BV138 had higher production? This would give the Germans much longer range, cheaper, and far more reliable recon for spotting for and liaison with Uboats than the Fw200.
Assuming the resources saved from not producing the FW200 were thrown into expanding production of these aircraft, while further resources are saved for this and other projects by no producing the Do217 starting in 1940, how much more effective would the Uboats have been during the 1940-1942 period?
 
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Being designed to carry ordinance from the start rather than being converted transports could make them more dangerous themselves on top of being scouts for the U-boats. Maybe see the Germans use flying boats the way the USN used "Black Cat" Catalina's against Japanese shipping. Air attack was a major issues for convoys in the Med and Arctic during the war. Adding that threat on a wider scale in the Atlantic could see an earlier push for escort carriers and more fighters on escort carriers to provide air cover.
 

Deleted member 1487

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=177319&p=1581686

I forgot that I posted this question nearly 2 years ago on another forum. There are some interesting comments there that answer a few of my questions, but raise several others. Hopefully this will spur some discussion.

@BigWillyG:
I think in their basic form they were most useful as reconnaissance aircraft. Spotting for Uboats even at a time when convoy codes were broken by German naval intelligence (1939- January 1941) there were still just over 30% interceptions by Uboats, with only 17% engaged. With recon aircraft guided to areas where the convoy routes were determined to be by code breaking, it enhances interceptions and engagements dramatically, especially in a period where there were virtually no escorts for convoys. Uboats were more effective tools to hit convoys than aerial bombing, especially when CAM ships pop up in 1941.
Its interesting to think that perhaps without aerial bombing the British don't develop counter measures for these aircraft, as they aren't seen as that much of a threat, which means they can operate safely longer in their recon role. It would of course help too if the Hohentwiel radar system, which was technologically possible from 1938 on, was operational in numbers by June 1940.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=194955
A couple quotes from this link:
The reconnaisance mission is to see the enemy, report what you see, and not get killed before you can report. The Sunderland and the PBY carried out the mission well. The PBY was able to land with wheels instead of its hull. There were land based PBYs at Ford Island on December 7, 1941. It was an aircrew flying the PBY that spotted the Bismarck, another spotted the Kido Butai on its way to Midway. You may need to do more research. Your reply suggests that your are thinking of some more combative role than long range reconnaisance. Also, the PBY and Sunderland did the job ruining U-Boat's days.


There was also a small "cause-and-effect" loop that afected the Condor; because it had been so successful as a maritime attack aircraft for a time, the Allies developed capabilities against it - camships, MAC ships, escort carriers...

Perhaps if it had been restricted to a reconnaissance role from the beginning, they wouldn't have moved SO fast (!!!) to counter it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_PBY_Catalina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Sunderland
These two allied aircraft were very successful in the role that I'm suggesting for the German aircraft above, both of which were pretty successful in their very limited employment.
 
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You should have listed the performance figures of the military Do-26 listed on Wiki, rather than the civilian version. The FW-200 was quite impressive as a civilian aircraft as well.
 

Deleted member 1487

You should have listed the performance figures of the military Do-26 listed on Wiki, rather than the civilian version. The FW-200 was quite impressive as a civilian aircraft as well.

Whoops I intended to list the military version, but made a mistake:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_26#Specifications_-_Do_26V6
Performance

Maximum speed: 324 km/h (175 kn, 201 mph)
Range: 7,100 km (3,834 nmi, 4,412 mi)

Less impressive, especially as it couldn't carry bombs, but still significantly in excess of the range of even a fuel overloaded Condor.
 
All these long range luftwaffe aircraft PODs are interesting. The best chance of doing something war changing is thru june 41 where the condors were sucessful and where forcing drastic british countermeasures like using fleet carriers for convoy support really impacts other theaters.

The military convoys were small, releative to the mass of shipping feeding English industry and population and were well defended so the British are probably going to be able to still send important convoys to the mideast. Cancelling a Taranto raid or skipping on a Malta replinishent run due to lack of carriers hurts in the med but the effects are realized later rather than sooner. (Compass still happens, Greece / Crete still happens, but Britain can't build up like OTL)

but I see the lack of shipping / gerater Italian freedom of action means:
a) Crusader fails for British in December 41
b) Malta falls by July 42
c) Germany/Italy push through to close Alexandria in September 1942, but can't cross the Nile in strength. German/ Italian supply situation much favorable with Mersa Matruh and such little ports use being unhindered and use extensively by MFPs and such small craft.
d) Due to lack of shipping, and less favorable Vichy politics, and due to German sucesses in Med. Allies can't do Torch in November 1942 but feed Egypt with as much as they can and drive the Germans/Italians back slowly.
e) Allies focus on building up Britain to OTL which has slipped behind due to industrial inefficiencies caused by lack of shipping.
f) Without Vichy and Tunisia Germany has more reserves availiable to deal with aftermath of Stalingrad, in fact if Dieppe doesn't happen and Germans less concerned about invasion from the west I could see the Germans moving the 6th panzer a couple weeks earlier from France as a reserve to Stalingrad, changing the whole complexion of that campaign. 1943 Soviet front is basically a stalemate.
g) Invasion of France 1944 still goes aheads and wins just the same as OTL.
h) Soviet allied politics are much strained due to lack of a early serious second front to relieve pressure, I see the various summits (Tehran etc.) going much more favorable to the Soviets politically, with the Allies basically conceeding eastern Europe from the get go to Soviet Influence without any pretence that elections or anything will happen. Poland, Rommania and Hungary become SSRs post war. Yougoslavia will be be less independent of Soviet control. Greece and Denmark will be like OTL Finland and Finland communist and a warsaw pact member (in name only really though, still a democracy). (This obviously can have much variation, with the different countries being different than this)
i) Ironically the cold war is much less cold, because the Soviet domination of eastern europe is far more accepted by the west as what the Soviets have earned for their struggles, the Soviets have suffered more and have far more now than they can really control like this and so push less hard and just try to keep control of what they have, after Stalins death, governments in Hungary and such places become defacto independent from Soviet control (sort of like 80's OTL Rommania) as long as they still are in the "Warsaw Pact" (or whatever they call their alliance/diplomatic system that acknowledges Soviet domination).
j) In the east its pretty much decided agreed by 47, that the north part of China will be communist (Manchuria, Jehol) and the rest not. The Soviets just trying to control what they have are more than ok with this and keep the Chinese communists in line, North China is just another east German like basket case country the Soviets have to support, but the rest of Asia prospers, no Korea, no Vietnam war.
 
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