Dornier 19: the Luftwaffe's belated bomber

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Deleted member 1487

Given the actual number of Condors built, is the transfer of resources going to produce anything like a useful number of aircraft?

Going to 4-engined 'heavy' aircraft rather than 2-engined would, if 1938?? RAF figures are correct, reduce the cost, labour required, number of engines required, flying personnel and maintenance personnel per lb of bombs dropped but would they be dropped anywhere useful??

Then there is the effect of reduced aircraft 1939 to May/June 1940, what effect is that going to have?

Given the slack in the German aero industry caused by the numerous butterflies relating to Walter Wever's death in 1936, the German aero industry would have more resources and would produce more aircraft and engines ITTL due to Wever surviving, making it the worry about resources moot. Milch actually having control over production as he did before Wever's death IOTL would result in far greater improvements in production that more than offset the cost of a small Do19 program. Udet wouldn't be in charge and would never achieve a position in the technical department, meaning Wilhelm Wimmer, Fritz Loeb, and Wolfram von Richthofen would all remain in the technical department tremendously improving Germany's production and the quality of aircraft, not to mention prevent the enormous production and development fuck ups of the OTL Luftwaffe from 1936-1941.

But hypothetically speaking the early canceling of the Do17 in 1938 would free up major resources. Hell, cancel the Me210, which began tooling in 1939 before the first prototype even flew and revealed its seriously flawed design and Germany would have huge resources to devote to an improved Do 19.
 

Deleted member 1487

I came across some interesting information about this topic that I'd like to share if anyone still cares:

There was some resistance to the idea that the Do19 could have achieved the proportions I suggested by 1939-40. Recently I was reading up on the Ju89, Ju90, and Ju290 the latter two being developments of the first, which was the contemporary of the Do19:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_90
This was a civilian development of the Ju89, which was service ready in the A1 series in late 1939-early 1940, which is right on time for what I am suggesting for the Do19 here.

So instead of being ordered as a civilian development, if the military version had been kept on from 1936, as both the Do19 and Ju89 were supposed to have been, then they could have been functional in the timeframe I proposed.

Also it should be noted that the Ju90 received a totally new fuselage, really only keeping the same wings and tail of the Ju89.
The military version, which started development in 1939, received major changes, including having the wings totally changed. These all could have happened with the Do19 if development had continued from 1936 on, which provides us a real life example, though of course the Ju89 to Ju90 conversion probably took more time than if it had remained a military design, as the design was demilitarized and then remilitarized later. Still even with major changes to the airframe the aircraft was operational by the early war period, which would have made it useful for operations by 1940 had it remained militarized instead of being a civilian project, which received less funding, none of it military.
 
Hi Wiking
The timetable was doable. Getting a bomber from first flight to production in 3 years would be normal for the 30s. There was nothing radically different about the aircraft, and Germany was in a hurry.
The Italians, with an eye on the export market, went from record plane to operational SM79 in a shorter interval.
The real debate should be on Ju89 vs Do19. If the LW really wanted either one, the could have them by 1940.
And it's funny to see you getting plinkered about the Do19 being possible in 1940 when people are talking about operational Me262 with reliable engines in 1943 all the time...
 

Deleted member 1487

Hi Wiking
The timetable was doable. Getting a bomber from first flight to production in 3 years would be normal for the 30s. There was nothing radically different about the aircraft, and Germany was in a hurry.
The Italians, with an eye on the export market, went from record plane to operational SM79 in a shorter interval.
The real debate should be on Ju89 vs Do19. If the LW really wanted either one, the could have them by 1940.
And it's funny to see you getting plinkered about the Do19 being possible in 1940 when people are talking about operational Me262 with reliable engines in 1943 all the time...

Its funny that 200 Do19s or Ju89s in 1940 could have had more effect than 1000 Me262's in 1944. Plus how the hell does anyone think the Jumo jet engines would be ready by 1943???
 
Its funny that 200 Do19s or Ju89s in 1940 could have had more effect than 1000 Me262's in 1944. Plus how the hell does anyone think the Jumo jet engines would be ready by 1943???

They just do. Maybe they believe in the engine fairy...
I've seen lots of posts stating they the LW should have won the war with jets in 43, while its really rare for people to appreciate that what they needed was the DB603 and Jumo 213 in 1942...
 

Deleted member 1487

They just do. Maybe they believe in the engine fairy...
I've seen lots of posts stating they the LW should have won the war with jets in 43, while its really rare for people to appreciate that what they needed was the DB603 and Jumo 213 in 1942...

Or better production in 1940 and a better bombing strategy over Britain.
Edit:
Of course expanding Daimler-Benz production pre-war instead of Jumo would seriously help too, as it would ensure that the DB 603 would be more available from 1942 on, which was basically the Jumo 213, just 2 years earlier. Turning the Wolfsburg VW plant over to aero engine production in 1940 would also have been ver wise.
 
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Or better production in 1940 and a better bombing strategy over Britain.
Edit:
Of course expanding Daimler-Benz production pre-war instead of Jumo would seriously help too, as it would ensure that the DB 603 would be more available from 1942 on, which was basically the Jumo 213, just 2 years earlier. Turning the Wolfsburg VW plant over to aero engine production in 1940 would also have been ver wise.

The Jumo 213 was arguably the better engine. More shared information btw companies and a greater effort from junkers might have allowed for the 213 to be avaiable earlier. But the ideal line up (probably coming from cancelling the doubles) would be to have the DB603 in mass production in 42, backed by the Jumo 213 in 43.

As an interesting sidebar, just read in a French magazine that the LW only could fight BoB because they captured 240 000tons of high octane aviation fuel from French reserves, allowing them to have lots of fuel at a time when their sources of aviation fuel were small and their stocks were getting short. This reminds me of a thread I once started about more allied air operations 1939/40 and this gives it a whole new angle, the LW would still come out on top of an intensive air war before the battle for France, but would be running out of fuel.
An agressive allied air offensive against the German fuel industry, forcing intensive, and fuel using, LW ops might have had a major impact.
 

Deleted member 1487

As an interesting sidebar, just read in a French magazine that the LW only could fight BoB because they captured 240 000tons of high octane aviation fuel from French reserves, allowing them to have lots of fuel at a time when their sources of aviation fuel were small and their stocks were getting short. This reminds me of a thread I once started about more allied air operations 1939/40 and this gives it a whole new angle, the LW would still come out on top of an intensive air war before the battle for France, but would be running out of fuel.
An agressive allied air offensive against the German fuel industry, forcing intensive, and fuel using, LW ops might have had a major impact.

The problem with this was the total unpreparedness of the ALA and RAF for such a campaign in 1939. The French had pretty much totally neglected their air force, meaning it wasn't really even ready in May 1940, which enabled it to be defeated. If they tried something like that in 1939 the Germans had their radar up, though nowhere near the Dowding system in effectiveness, and most of their Me109s in the West just for such an attack. So the problem is then the Allied air forces would be worn down before the Germans get ready to launch their offensive, so they don't have to generate nearly as many missions to shut down Allied airbases as IOTL. That saves a lot of fuel, as ME109s use less than bombers do. The Germans might end up saving fuel then if the Allies come to them and they can gut the allied air fleets over Germany, gaining extra aluminum, while saving fuel, as it cost less to fly over Germany than fly over France, especially with single engine aircraft not carrying bombs.

By the time the Germans attack the Allied air forces would be worn down and the Luftwaffe would suffer even less, as their bombers are unaffected, while the Allied bombers AND fighters are ground up. Plus the Germans were the only ones with combat experience and had modern fighter combat doctrine. The RAF and ALA didn't really have any training in modern techniques, which IOTL enabled the Germans to win some easy victories early in the Battle of Britain; here the Brits and French are coming to them, so we are seeing the BOB in reverse, but without the attackers having any combat experience in modern air combat and have actually forgotten much of the lessons of WW1. If anything the Luftwaffe might take the Battle of Britain then more serious than IOTL, as they realize the Brits have radar and they see what it can do and how effective air defense is and fighters are against bombers in daylight.

The British learned the harsh lesson to a degree when they tried to bomb Germany during daylight in 1939: they tried to bomb Wilhelmshafen and were discovered by naval radar, which enabled the BF110s to attack a flight of unescorted RAF bombers and slaughter them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messer...oney_War_and_the_.22Battle_of_German_Bight.22
The Phoney War and the "Battle of German Bight"

Most of the units protecting western Germany from aerial attack were equipped with the Messerschmitt Bf 109. One of the Bf 110 units assigned to air defence in this sector was Lehrgeschwader 1. On 23 November 1939, the Bf 110 claimed its first Allied victim when LG 1 Bf 110s engaged and shot down a Morane-Saulnier M.S.406 of the Armée de l'Air over Verdun.[6] Just three weeks later, on 18 December 1939, the Bf 110 participated in the first German victory over British arms in World War II.[7] RAF Bomber Command sent 22 Vickers Wellington bombers to attack the German naval base at Wilhelmshaven. Despite help from Bf 109 units, it was the Bf 110 which excelled in the bomber destroyer role. By the end of the fighting, the Germans claimed 38 RAF bombers.[8] Actual losses were 11 Wellingtons and six damaged to varying degrees.[9] Some sources claim a 12th Wellington was destroyed.[10] The raid convinced RAF Bomber Command to consider aborting the daylight bombing of Germany in favour of night actions.

The bolded was just as much a reason for not launching a major bombing campaign, not to mention the prohibition against targeting civilians, which kept lots of military targets of the bombing lists.
 
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But there were large factories of synthetic fuel just across the Dutch and the French border. That, and the (ok, small) Pechelbronn oil fields near France were all within the range of Allied fighters and could be targets that would force the LW to fight.
And the LW would certainly launch a counter offensive, a sort of BoF (BoB, over France), instead of just spending October 39 yo May 40 flying little and saving fuel.
This as nothing to do with the Do19, so I ressurected my old thread so as not to high jack yours when the "shut up with the allied air offensive" posts come in, if they do.
 

Deleted member 1487

But there were large factories of synthetic fuel just across the Dutch and the French border. That, and the (ok, small) Pechelbronn oil fields near France were all within the range of Allied fighters and could be targets that would force the LW to fight.
And the LW would certainly launch a counter offensive, a sort of BoF (BoB, over France), instead of just spending October 39 yo May 40 flying little and saving fuel.
This as nothing to do with the Do19, so I ressurected my old thread so as not to high jack yours when the "shut up with the allied air offensive" posts come in, if they do.

No problem, I added a much more detailed post to yours.
 

Deleted member 1487

The Jumo 213 was arguably the better engine. More shared information btw companies and a greater effort from junkers might have allowed for the 213 to be avaiable earlier. But the ideal line up (probably coming from cancelling the doubles) would be to have the DB603 in mass production in 42, backed by the Jumo 213 in 43.
Still early beats perfect. What about use?
Having enough DB603s from 1942 on could mean an early FW190D by 1943. Its also means German two engine bombers have higher powered engines, but the FW190D is enough; IOTL it entered production in August 1944, but had it been around from August or even September 1943 it would have had a much greater impact.

Of course if we have a Do19 with the DB603 in 1942 or perhaps even a four nacelle He177 powered by the DB603 it would have tons of uses.
 
Still early beats perfect. What about use?
Having enough DB603s from 1942 on could mean an early FW190D by 1943. Its also means German two engine bombers have higher powered engines, but the FW190D is enough; IOTL it entered production in August 1944, but had it been around from August or even September 1943 it would have had a much greater impact.

Of course if we have a Do19 with the DB603 in 1942 or perhaps even a four nacelle He177 powered by the DB603 it would have tons of uses.

And Germany regarding the DB605 as a "substitute standart" engine, to use an US term, would possibly make its introduction ti Italian manufactire much faster, leading to larger numbers of "5" series fighters in time for the Sicily campaign, maybe even for Africa use...

The impact on night fighters would be large, and the existence of the Fw190D in 1943 would give the LW something they could fight the P51 with.
Earlier production of C3 high octane synthetic fuel, something they only started in late 41 and was never completely succeful would also have helped a lot.
 
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