Dornier 19 instead of FW 200

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
  • Start date

Deleted member 1487

You could have some adicional high quality aircraft by PODing the Bloch MB162 one or two years earlier so that France can be "persuaded" to transfer a few dozen aircraft to the LW in 1940. The original prototype flew in 1939 (civilian 161) and 1940 (bomber 162). By the way, do say so if you find my constant bombardment with alternative types annoying. I'm a big fan of building alternative orders of battle myself so I'm allways looking for "why not" types.

No problem, I learn something new every time.
The problem with the Bloch is that it was an improved 1936 Do19 in 1940. By June 1940 there would be nearly 4 years of development for the Do19, instead of the Bloch, which first entered into testing in mid-1940 with weaker engines than were available to the Germans. The French were pretty far behind the Germans in air matters, though the Bloch was pretty fast. By 1940 the Do19 (119) would have been more advanced than the Bloch MB162. Plus the He177 would be soon ready for production, which blew the Bloch away. Plus if the He177 had the DB603 by 1941 then the Bloch becomes a sad joke.
 

Deleted member 1487

I'm thinking the Germans would have benefited from licence-building Japanese flying boats. The H6K and H8K would both be great for maritime search and strike.

That would mean excepting technology from a people the Germans didn't respect as engineers; they shared the world's disdain of Japanese technology.
Of course German designs could have benefited from adopting Japanese radial technology from 1938 on.
Also the Do26 had similar performance to the Japanese flying boats.
 

Deleted member 1487

You know Wiking I was kind of thinking along the same lines as Ada was a few days ago. I saw some Luft46 art online of a Me 264 with swept wings, two jet engines and a pair of push pull props.

I thought if you took an earlier aircraft design like maybe the He115 and gave it the push pull props but left off the jets and swept wings give it heavier firepower it could be a potent war bird. Perhaps it could be an escort for the Do119.


But converting a tractor prop wing design to a push pull configuration would require some major reengineering. Perhaps in an ATL were the Kriegsmarine had its own independent air arm and ordered such an aircraft in the early 30s such a plane could exist.

I fear for your TL it would be considered ASB but in my mind’s eye it’s a cool looking plane

The question is whether Heinkel had developed the technology for push-pullers and would accept licensing Dornier technology or Dornier licensing the He115 and not design their own version. An escort won't really be needed for the Do119 in 1940-1, which can fill the long range offensive reconnaissance role all by themselves. They can also act as a strike aircraft too once a recon unit reported a convoy back to base, torpedo armed Do119s could head out and intercept. Of course that is a bit overkill for merchant ships, so it makes more sense to load up on bombs and take low-level bombing runs, because at this time there isn't much in the way of armament for merchant ships until 1941.
 
The question is whether Heinkel had developed the technology for push-pullers and would accept licensing Dornier technology or Dornier licensing the He115 and not design their own version. An escort won't really be needed for the Do119 in 1940-1, which can fill the long range offensive reconnaissance role all by themselves. They can also act as a strike aircraft too once a recon unit reported a convoy back to base, torpedo armed Do119s could head out and intercept. Of course that is a bit overkill for merchant ships, so it makes more sense to load up on bombs and take low-level bombing runs, because at this time there isn't much in the way of armament for merchant ships until 1941.
I agree I was just having some fun. I wish I was more artistic or had claymore's Modeling skills so I could bring these idea to life. Maybe we should start an alternate aircraft thread or has some one already done that?
 

Deleted member 1487

I agree I was just having some fun. I wish I was more artistic or had claymore's Modeling skills so I could bring these idea to life. Maybe we should start an alternate aircraft thread or has some one already done that?

No worries, I wish I could model too. I thought there was an alternate aircraft thread at one point.
 
No worries, I wish I could model too. I thought there was an alternate aircraft thread at one point.
I used to build a lot of models mostly German Fighters from WWI & II but it's been a long time since then. as for the alternate aircraft thread I think There was one but the search engine shows nothing.
 
Trying to figure out what this does for the Italians:

As far as this helping the Italians, likely if pressed, in summer - fall 1940 the British would put the Illustrious on top cover duty for convoys, and maybe even the Eagle as well, maybe even pulling in Ark Royal as well after her November refit.

This perhaps butterflies away the Taranto raid, but I doubt if the Italian fleet is really capable of doing anything useful anyway.

All the 1940 WS convoys are probably gonna go as planned. So likely operation Compass happens anyway.

Perhaps the second armored division doesn't get sent, so perhaps the British don't feel like they can intervene in Greece and the so many butterflies make this all confusing at this point.

In 1941 things like the Tiger Convoy aren't going to happen and Malta remains weak. Formidable and Victorious are available however so there are 5 aircaraft carriers to fly top cover if the British get pressed in the North Atlantic.

--------------------------
If the Germans are in it to win it against Britain this becomes a big deal as the British might not have the strength to stop a determined German- Italian effort to reach Alexandria, especially if their limited limted supply is boosted by Ju52s, siebel ferries and light rail construction and such things that not doing Barbarossa might allow.

If the Germans do Barbarossa anyway then it just means the British might have to be content to sit around Mersa Mutrah until they are ready to supply this area seriously and attack to win in early 1943 sometime.
 

Deleted member 1487

Trying to figure out what this does for the Italians:

As far as this helping the Italians, likely if pressed, in summer - fall 1940 the British would put the Illustrious on top cover duty for convoys, and maybe even the Eagle as well, maybe even pulling in Ark Royal as well after her November refit.

This perhaps butterflies away the Taranto raid, but I doubt if the Italian fleet is really capable of doing anything useful anyway..
No, the Germans appropriated the Italian strategic oil reserve and rarely apportioned supplies that would allow the fleet to operate.


All the 1940 WS convoys are probably gonna go as planned. So likely operation Compass happens anyway.
Depends on whether the Germans go on a sustained bombing campaign of Western ports, mainly Liverpool (codenamed Larder by the Germans because of its massive importance as an import/export center). Bombing of the ports on the Clyde and Liverpool would make dock space critical and the WS convoys would/could get cut to make room for imports to keep the Home Isles fighting. I'm curious what the impact would be if the WS convoys got cut.


Perhaps the second armored division doesn't get sent, so perhaps the British don't feel like they can intervene in Greece and the so many butterflies make this all confusing at this point..
That would be very interesting. No Crete?

In 1941 things like the Tiger Convoy aren't going to happen and Malta remains weak. Formidable and Victorious are available however so there are 5 aircaraft carriers to fly top cover if the British get pressed in the North Atlantic..
Sounds about right.


--------------------------
If the Germans are in it to win it against Britain this becomes a big deal as the British might not have the strength to stop a determined German- Italian effort to reach Alexandria, especially if their limited limted supply is boosted by Ju52s, siebel ferries and light rail construction and such things that not doing Barbarossa might allow.

If the Germans do Barbarossa anyway then it just means the British might have to be content to sit around Mersa Mutrah until they are ready to supply this area seriously and attack to win in early 1943 sometime.

Either way would be interesting for sure.
 
this site lists the ships in the WS convoys (but not the contents)

http://www.naval-history.net/xAH-WSConvoys03-1940.htm

The first one leaving end of June 40 contained the big liners AQUITANIA, MAURETANIA and QUEEN MARY so probably lots of soldiers then.

the second big WS convoy left early August 40. So I am assuming these 2 convoys get to go regardless. All these convoys did leave Liverpool so there is more and more risk of delay/cancelation as time goes on if the Germans focus on that port.

I was thinking the Germans would start figuring out "man were sinking a bunch of ships with these planes" about the August 1940 time frame and adjust their strategic thinking and targets about then, BOB is underway in full by August so the Germans might let that play out in its OTL way until the end of September, at which time they go all out against the ports (or just overall shipping losses change British priorities). But the Operation Compass stuff would already be in the pipeline by then (and the Austrailians would coming from the Indian Ocean), so this affects Greece/Sunflower/Brevity/BattleAxe/Syria time era more.

If a living General Wever allows the German more strategic insight and a shipping campaign instead of the OTL BOB from July 40 on then Operation Compass and East African operations could be in danger I suppose.
 
A single ship the Sydney Star in "convoy" AP-2 carried 150 tanks, Leaving Liverpool in August 22, 1940 arriving in the mid east at end of September (escorted by cruiser Ajax). I am thinking that the small size of these military convoys means that they would still be prioritized and sent in 1940, vs the bulk supply required to feed millions and keep the industry going which is taking up most of the shipping and berthing space.
 

Deleted member 1487

Robert Knauss is another Major in 36 with no staff experience it seams.

Wiking who were these pro-bomber people that were sacked by Goering?

Michael

I've recently been browsing through James Corum's 'Creating the Operational Air War' and found later chapters (pp238-241 hardcover edition) in the book that focus on strategic bombing pre-war, but after Wever's death. They focus a bit on the radio guidance systems and KG100 and von Rohden's involvement with strategic bombing doctrine and how Kesselring even supported it. This was in 1938 and he was not sacked, but rather was an important theorist. In fact in the post-Wever era he, according to Corum, as the pre-eminent strategic airpower theorist in Germany. Corum states that his ideas were in favor with the majority of Luftwaffe officers at the start of the war. Accordingly as CoS Kesselring emphasized training for long range navigation and high altitude bombing. After Wever's death every Luftwaffe maneuver and wargame involved strategic bombing missions both by day and night. Even strategic bombing only campaigns were war gamed. Jeschonnek apparently was pushing for more 'joint warfare' operations instead of independent strategic operations, which seemingly is why the Luftwaffe was more focused on army support and 'operational' bombing rather than strategic operations. When the BoB and Blitz then happened, Jeschonnek, apparently not a strategic airpower advocate and enthusiast, was lost and pretty much let Goering and Hitler decide the (constantly changing and dispersed) targets instead of developing a focused, sustained campaign on a single type of targets, as Luftwaffe theorists advocated.
http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/WEHRMACHT/LUFTWAFFE/Generalmajor/HERHUDT_HANS.html

http://www.onairpower.org/docs/Rohden,_Hans-Detlef_Herhudt
Further, he argued that strategic air attack was the only way that Germany would be able to strike quickly in order to put its larger enemies at a disadvantage. He put together a comprehensive theory of airpower centered on strategic bombing, for which he coined the term "operational air war" (operative Luftkrieg)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top