And the conflict that Charles will have to worry about will not be conflict between the individual native and French Stadaconans but conflict between Stadacona and European states interested in taking the goldfields for themselves. Individual Frenchmen won't be a problem. Armies of Frenchmen will.

Have the French even begun colonization of North America at this point or are they still just coming every so often to collect furs? If not, then the Stadaconans and the other natives don't have much to worry about though that still leaves the other Europeans like the English or the Dutch gaining enough interest to send some of their own men to check out the place, or is Stadacona still known only amongst the French?
 
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Just wanted to pop in and say this looks really promising, which I expected since it was suggested to me by people who have good taste:p. So far it looks sound, and this is coming from a Mohawk too;). There's some cultural nitpicks I can point out here and there, but I'll wait until I'm fully caught up before addressing anything specific.
 
Isn't Stadacona already part of France, since King Francis I accepted Donnacona as the Count (not "Compte", by the way - compte means "to count" as if by numbers) of Canada?
 
Isn't Stadacona already part of France, since King Francis I accepted Donnacona as the Count (not "Compte", by the way - compte means "to count" as if by numbers) of Canada?

True but in all sense and purposes, Stadacona is still independent but de jure a vassal of the French king, much like the conquests of the Spanish conquistadors in Mexico and Peru were autonomous entities for a time until the Crown sent in their own men to take over administration from the conquistadors. arly attempts at establishing permanent settlements were failures. In OTL, the French's initial attempts at establishing settlements in the area of New France, as opposed to just trading with the natives, all ended in failure or the colonists having to relocate themselves like the first Acadians. Once the French ships bring back knowledge that there is gold in Kanata, you'll have the TTL first official colonies in the St. Lawrence watershed, particularly the area of the eastern townships.
 
Have the French even begun colonization of North America at this point or are they still just coming every so often to collect furs? If not, then the Stadaconans and the other natives don't have much to worry about though that still leaves the other Europeans like the English or the Dutch gaining enough interest to send some of their own men to check out the place, or is Stadacona still known only amongst the French?

Actual colonization hasn't begun yet North of Florida. As far as I can tell OTL there wasn't an economic incentive to do so until it became feasible to enforce a fur trade monopoly in the early 17th century. The discovery of gold means that there is now an economic incentive to begin colonization a little earlier...

1535-1600 (OTL) is a weird time in terms of French colonialism because the St. Lawrence Valley is referred to as New France on maps, but there aren't any actually colonies until Champlain comes around. And, during that the French don't even have a monopoly on the fur trade that's taking place - there are lots of Basque whalers who put in stops at Tadoussac during that time period.
 
Just wanted to pop in and say this looks really promising, which I expected since it was suggested to me by people who have good taste:p. So far it looks sound, and this is coming from a Mohawk too;). There's some cultural nitpicks I can point out here and there, but I'll wait until I'm fully caught up before addressing anything specific.

PLEASE give me all the nitpicks you can. When I lived in Montreal I knew a couple Mohawks, and it was then that my feminist self became excited about the matrilineal aspects of Iroquoain culture. Sadly, now I live on the West Coast, and know a few Abenakis and Algonquins but no Mohawks or other Iroquoains, so I'm getting most of the cultural information I'm using to write this from books. Some of them are pretty good books, but there are certain types of information that are not very well put down in book form.

And BTW, othyrsyde, I'm actually reading your Children of the Sun right now, and I'm enjoying it so far! It definitely touches on a number of the same themes that I'm hoping to touch on later, and I was actually thinking of giving you a post there to comment on that...
 
Isn't Stadacona already part of France, since King Francis I accepted Donnacona as the Count (not "Compte", by the way - compte means "to count" as if by numbers) of Canada?

Thank you! I totally had overlooked the fact that Comte and Compte are not spelled the same in French. My spoken French is sometimes much better than my written French, and this is one of those situations.

In terms of Stadacona being part of France, Cuāuhtemōc's answer is more or less correct. De jure, it is the Comté du Canada, but it is de facto independent, as, so far, the French Kings haven't seen it as worthwhile to actually enforce their overlordship.
 
Have the French even begun colonization of North America at this point or are they still just coming every so often to collect furs? If not, then the Stadaconans and the other natives don't have much to worry about though that still leaves the other Europeans like the English or the Dutch gaining enough interest to send some of their own men to check out the place, or is Stadacona still known only amongst the French?

I just realized I didn't answer your question about whether or not Stadacona is still known only amongst the French. It appears on maps and is known about by others, in particular by the Basque whalers who frequent the Gulf of St. Lawrence. However, only the French trade at Stadacona, while the Basques trade at Tadoussac and the English and Dutch trade along the East Coast of what is now the USA. Stadacona is actually (before the discovery of gold) a less profitable trade destination than most other trade posts as the Frenchmen there aren't going to accept poorly-made household items in exchange for vast quantities of furs. The reason the French traders come to Stadacona is really for the sake of the comfort of the feasts they offer and the company of women who speak French.

Things will change a little with the discovery of gold. The English and Dutch will certainly be interested in any opportunity they can get to take control of the region (or even engage in trade), but the de jure French overlordship will keep them away because they both currently need France as an ally against Spain. The Spanish are the only ones capable of projecting power against France in the region at the moment, but they already have all the gold they need from their conquests farther South, and compared to Mexico or Peru, the quantities of gold in the *Gilbert River region are tiny. So we won't see any conflict between England and France in the region until around 1600 when the power of Spain begins to wane.

One thing I want to mention here is that, for the sake of this TL, I'm assuming that butterflies in Europe are fairly minimal so far. The monarchs of England, France and Spain will be different people at this point, but the political trends will be the same: England will still become Protestant, France will still have Wars of Relgion, and Spain will still be the big powerful one everyone fears until England and France can get their act together. I'm going to be very hand-wave-y about what's going on in Europe as I don't have the energy to work out the specifics. If anyone wants to give me suggestions about European butterflies I would be oh so happy. One thing I do have in mind is that Edward VI of England will survive, marry Mary, Queen of Scots, and have at least one surviving child, leading to a PU between England and Scotland under a surviving House of Tudor rather than under the Stuarts. Other than that, I'm totally open to ideas.
 
Update 5 - Charles Grignon
Update #5 - Charles Grignon

(Stadacona, June 1578)

Charles returned to Stadacona to see a great ship anchored in the middle of the Kanata River [1]. This was no surprise to him. He had waved to the ship as it had passed him by two days ago. He had spent the early summer at the mouth of the Kanata River leading a war party against the L'Nuk [2]. Victory had been achieved, and he returned with twenty captives, while he had only lost two men in battle. He hoped that next year the L'Nuk would give up trying to contest the fishing grounds, and he could lead his warriors off to fight another enemy.

When the ship had passed him on its way upriver, Charles had been surprised by its size and splendour. Until two years ago, the only ships that had come to Stadacona had been small fishing and whaling ships making an extra stop in Stadacona to trade. Then, that had all changed with the discovery of the Abenaki gold fields. Henri, Charles father, had spent the winter of 1575-76 in France making a deal with the merchant Georges Clémenceau. In the summer of 1576, Henri had returned to Stadacona with Monsieur Huot, Clémenceau's agent. Huot was an expert in gold mining, and his job was to train the Abenakis in panning for gold, and to enforce Clémenceau's monopoly on Stadaconan gold exports. Then, last summer, the first of Clémenceau's great ships had arrived bearing the cargo Clémenceau had promised in exchange for the gold.

Clémenceau's ships were larger and better built than the fishing and whaling ships Charles was used to seeing, and carried much more valuable cargo. The first ship had brought more iron tools than Charles had seen in one place before, gunpowder and ammunition for the old arquebuses, and a flock of sheep. The sheep were part of Henri's plan to make Stadacona more self-sufficient. The population had now grown to the point where it was no longer practical to hunt for skins to clothe everyone, and cloth imported from Europe was too expensive for everyday use. Most Stadaconans were now wearing leather from Stadacona's cattle herds, but it was clear that, in the long term, it would be much better for Stadacona to have its own source of cloth. So, Clémenceau had shipped over the sheep last summer, and earlier this year had sent a weaver with his loom to set up shop in Stadacona.

However, the ship that Charles now saw anchored off Stadacona was definitely not a typical merchant ship. It was certainly as big as Clémenceau's ships were, but it was longer and narrower, and had a different set of sails. Also, while Clémenceau's ships carried a cannon or two for defense against Spanish raiders, this ship was bristling with guns. Charles got a feeling that this ship had not come from Clémenceau after all.

Charles soon discovered that this suspicion was correct. As soon as he pulled his canoe up to the dock, Charles was whisked away by his father, who took him back to Fort-St-Francis. Hanging over the door of Henri's room was the suit of clothes he had bought in France: colourful, elaborate garments, which Henri insisted were only the dress of a common trader back in France. “Put these on,” Henri said to his son, “they should fit you fairly well: you're not much larger than I am.”

“Why do I have to wear these?” Charles asked.

“Today, my son, today you are a Comte.”

“A what?”

“A Comte. It's a rank of the French nobility. Your mother's father Donnacona was made Comte du Canada by King Francis back when he was in France. There's someone on that ship asking for an audience with the current Comte, and, well, that's you.”

“Why me? Don't titles in France pass from a father to his sons before his daughters? Doesn't that mean that my uncle should be Comte instead?”

“Your uncle doesn't speak French, and thus wouldn't be able to negotiate with the Frenchman, a Chevalier [3] by the name of Gérard, who is seeking an audience. Your mother and I decided to tell Chevalier Gérard that you, as the grandson of Donnacona, are the current Comte. He didn't ask how you were descended from Donnacona, and just confirmed that you are his grandson. He wanted to speak with you as soon as you returned to Stadacona, and I want to make sure that you are presentable before he arrives. These are not the clothes of an aristocrat but at least they're French clothes. Please put them on, Gérard is probably waiting already.”

Charles got dressed, and let his father lead him into the room that had once been Roberval's office. It had been outfitted as a makeshift audience chamber for the occasion. Chevalier Étienne Gérard was already standing in the room, flanked by two soldiers. “Ah, at last the Comte is here,” he said, “how did your campaign go? Did the enemy run and flee when they saw your overwhelming numbers?”

Charles could detect the sarcasm in Gérard's voice. His father had told him that even the smallest European armies consisted of a thousand men, and he understood how small his war party must seem to Gérard. But, he refused to be fazed by it. “Ahh, you Frenchmen are so inefficient. Why send ten thousand men to win a war when you can do it with a hundred? I can count my dead on one hand. How many soldiers died for you on your last campaign? One thing I can say about us Kanatians is that we don't waste lives.”

“Messieurs,” Henri broke in, “comparison of military tactics can wait. I believe that the Chevalier here has pressing business that he needs to discuss with you.”

“Yes, I do,” replied Gérard, handing a scroll to Charles, “His Most Christian Majesty King Charles IX [4] has sent this to you. It seems that you have learned the location of the Golden Kingdom of the Saguenay which your grandfather spoke of, and which Cartier and Roberval were unable to find. King Charles commands you to abide by the agreement your grandfather made with his grandfather and provide us with guides to lead us to this Golden Kingdom, provisions to feed us through the duration of the expedition, and porters to carry our supplies. We mean to conquer the Saguenay and bring the gold back to France in the name of the King!”

Before Charles could reply, Henri broke in, “The Comte here was not yet born when this agreement was made, but I was. I remember that Comte Jean-Paul Donnacona clearly stated that the Land of the Saguenay lay to the North and West. The gold which our Abenaki allies have discovered lies to the South and East of here. Yes we have found gold, but it is not the golden land that Donnacona agreed to help King Francis conquer. The Compte has no obligation to support the conquest of the gold fields. We have already arranged to have the gold shipped back to France to enrich His Most Christian Majesty the King, and starting a war over these gold fields would do more harm than good.”

“The gold is being shipped back to France to enrich Clémenceau and yourselves!” Gérard sneered, “King Charles has nothing to do with your arrangement!” He turned to Charles, “If you will not support our expedition of conquest, then you are not a loyal vassal of the King and will be stripped of your lands and title! The cannons on board my ship could turn your palisade to splinters and our soldiers could overwhelm your band of warriors within hours. Provide us with the support we've asked for, and we will leave your town intact. Refuse us, and we will spare no one!”

“I'm sorry that Henri here has not been clear about our intentions,” Charles replied. “We have every intention of supporting your expedition of conquest. While we do not have any guides we can provide you with who have been to the gold fields themselves, we can certainly provide you with provisions for your expedition, canoes to take you up the Swift River[5], and men to paddle the canoes. However, we will need something in return. When my grandfather agreed to serve the King of France, the King in return agreed to protect him from his enemies. I do not object to the King's decision to make war on the Abenakis, but I will remind you that the King has an obligation to protect his loyal vassals in the case of such a war. With my army as small and poorly armed as it is, I can't hope to hold out against an Abenaki attack. But, if every one of my soldiers were armed with an arquebus, they could make short work of any Abenaki war party armed with spears. I am sure that on that great ship you have there, you enough arms and ammunition to spare one hundred weapons for a loyal vassal of King Charles. If you can show us that King Charles has every intention to uphold his grandfather's word and defend us against our enemies, then we will support King Charles' war against the Abenakis. But if you choose to attack us instead, then you will get no supplies from us, and will run out of food before you even reach the gold fields. The choice is yours.”

Gérard thought for a moment, “I have one hundred men aboard my ship, and two hundred arquebuses: two for each man. I can provide you with fifty, but no more than that. I need the extras to replace any that get damaged in battle.”

“Well then I can provide you with provisions but no canoes. You will have to find your own way up the river.” Charles remembered something his father had once told him: You have them as soon as they make an offer, he had said. Well, Gérard had made an offer. Clearly, he wanted what Charles was selling.

* * * * * *

(Stadacona, October 1578)

Charles left the feast hall and the shouts of the French soldiers inside. They seemed to be having a good enough time, eating meat and corn bread, and drinking the local Stadaconan beer. They were certainly getting along well enough with the Stadaconan women at the feast. Even those who didn't speak any French had no trouble getting the soldier's attention. It's hard to think that, just a few months ago, they were talking about slaughtering all of us, Charles thought.

Clearly, victory had made a difference. Gérard's army had reached the Abenaki encampment at the gold fields less than a week after departing Stadacona, and had driven the Abenakis off quickly and easily. The soldiers had spent much of the late summer and early fall building a fort up at the gold fields, and gathering as much gold as they could to send back to France. Gérard had arrived back in Stadacona with his men a week ago, and they had spent most the last week preparing the ship for departure. Gérard himself would be spending the winter in the fort by the gold fields with a garrison of 20 men, but the rest of the soldiers would be returning to France to bring the gold they had gathered to the King. Gérard had openly expressed his desire to obtain a governorship over the Abenaki lands in exchange for his service to France. Charles suspected that Gérard's decision to remain in personal command of the troops remaining was designed to make it harder for King Charles to replace him.

The morale of Gérard's men had been low when they had arrived back at Stadacona. They had run out of their supplies of beer and cheese within a month of leaving Stadacona, and had subsisted on dried corn and venison for most of their time in the gold fields. Charles had offered to serve the men a feast of beef, bread and beer in exchange for another fifty arquebuses, and the soldiers had jumped at the opportunity. Gérard himself had been reluctant to part with more of his weapons, but agreed to do so once he realized that the alternative might be mutiny.

As Gérard and his men feasted themselves in the hall, Charles walked up towards Fort-St-Francis, where his father was waiting for him. “Charles,” Henri said to him as he entered, “what word do you have from the soldiers?”

“Well,” Charles replied, “the good news is that none of them are excited about coming back in the spring. None of them particularly enjoyed serving on this expedition. If King Charles sends more troops next year, they probably won't be the same ones.”

“And I think there's a chance that he won't send more troops. When I was in France three years ago there was conflict heating up between the Catholics and Huguenots [6]. Then, Clémenceau's ship this summer brought word that it had broken out into war. I can imagine that King Charles needs all the troops he can get to fight his war at home.”

“Yes, but, he also needs all the gold he can get to pay these troops. He's not going to give up the gold fields easily... What's the word from Clémenceau's agent?”

“Huot is planning on leaving with the soldiers. He is convinced that he has no more work to do here, as Gérard has no desire to use middlemen in his shipments of gold to the King. I think that he wants to spend the voyage making connections with Gérard's soldiers in the hopes that he will be the one Gérard contacts if they need someone to build a full-scale mine. He did mention, though, that if we are able to regain control of the gold trade, he'd be happy to sell us more weapons and ammunition in exchange for the re-establishment of Clémenceau's monopoly.”

“Well, that's at least hopeful. Clémenceau has faith in us.”

“I wouldn't call it faith. He just wants to keep his foot in the door in case Gérard's expedition goes the way Roberval's did. Besides, it's not us that he continues to work with, it's me. He's still upset with you for supporting Gérard's campaign against the Abenakis. I keep having to reassure Huot that I will not let you take charge of negotiations again.”

“Well, I didn't have much of a choice there, did I? It was help him out or have him burn down Stadacona. But as soon as his ship departs, things will be different. Gérard will have only 20 men left with him at the fort, and by the spring the numbers may very well be even fewer. We have enough arquebuses now to outfit 100 men. We can spent the winter training them, and then attack in the spring...”

“Charles, my son, don't be too hasty. Remember, those are soldiers of the King of France we are talking about. If you attack them, you will be making war against France. While King Charles may currently be distracted by domestic affairs, in a few year's time he could send ten thousand men against you. Remember how vulnerable Stadacona felt when Gérard theatened to attack this summer? Well, that's something you'll have to worry about more and more if you get on King Charles' bad side. What we need to look for is not a military solution but a diplomatic solution. Remember, what kept Cartier and Roberval from turning on the Stadaconans thirty years ago was the fact that King Francis had made Donnacona a Comte. Donnacona made himself useful to the King, and it was the fear of King Francis' wrath which kept Cartier and Roberval in line. We need to do the same here. We need to ensure that King Charles needs us more than he needs Gérard. Then, and only then, will we be safe.”

* * * * * *

(Stadacona, May 1579)

As they travelled up the Swift River, Charles listened to the French soldier's story. It seemed that the winter had been harder on the garrison than they had expected: none of the soldiers had seen as much snow as there had been this past winter, and, for lack of snowshoes, they were unable to hunt for food. Five of the twenty soldiers had died of starvation before the snows had begun to melt in spring.

This soldier, Claude was his name, had been returning from a spring hunt with a freshly killed deer when he had heard shouts and war cries from the direction of Gérard's fort. He had immediately dropped the deer and had crept closer to see what was happening. He had caught sight of an Abenaki war party of a few hundred who had surrounded the fort, and were taunting the soldiers within, trying to draw them out to where they would be vulnerable to spears and arrows.

One of the Abenakis had caught sight of Claude, and had chased him and his hunting partner away from the fort. Claude's hunting partner had been shot with an Abenaki arrow, but Claude had made it away, and had run to Stadacona. He had told Charles of the Abenaki attack, and had requested that Charles return upriver with enough men to repel the Abenakis and break the seige. While Claude believed that the remaining garrison could make short work of the Abenakis if they chose to assault the fort, he explained that Gérard was already low on supplies and couldn't withstand a seige if the Abenakis waited it out.

So now, Charles, leading a war party of 100, was traveling up the Swift River with Claude as a guide. He wasn't sure what he would find when he reached the fort. The Abenakis weren't usually the sort of warriors to attempt a prolonged seige, but, then again, this would be a very different sort of war than the ones they usually fought. Usually, the Abenakis, like the other peoples of Turtle Island[7], went to war mostly for prisoners and plunder. They didn't usually fight seiges because the potential gain wasn't worth the effort. But now that they had been driven off their own land, they might have more of a reason to fight. And if they had captured Claude's hunting partner alive, and if they had been able to communicate with him, they may have figured out how close the garrison was to starvation.

Sure enough, when Charles' war party drew closer to the gold fields, they saw the signs of Abenaki presence. They saw trees that had been freshly cut for firewood, and the remains of a deer carcass which had been butchered. Charles sent out scouts to locate the Abenaki encampment, and they returned to Charles without being spotted themselves.

Charles attacked the Abenakis at dawn while many of the warriors were just waking up. The Abenakis handn't been prepared for such an attack, and the Stadaconan arquebuses made short work of the Abenaki warriors. Fifty Abenakis were killed, and another fifty taken prisoner, while the remainder fled. Charles left most of his party to guard the prisoners and keep watch in case the Abenakis returned, and approached the fort with a party of thirty men.

“This is Charles Grignon, Comte du Canada here, I need to speak with the Chevalier!” Charles called out in French.

“Gérard is dead!” came the reply.

That's a relief, thought Charles, whoever's in charge now will have to be easier to work with. “Then I need to speak with whoever currently commands the garrison!”

Soon a soldier emerged from the fort. Charles recognized him from the feast last fall, but couldn't remember his name. “My name is Jean Boulanger,” the solider said, “and I am in command. I must thank you for driving away the Abenakis. There are only six of us left, and if we had to hold out any longer we would have had no choice but to eat our fallen comrades. Gérard doubted your loyalty to the King, and it is good to see that he was wrong.”

“Gérard was wrong about a good many things, and one of them was his ability to hold the gold fields against the Abenakis. I lead the only army in the region capable of defeating the Abenakis, and thus I ask that you turn over defense of this fort to me. You and your men will be able to return on the next ship back to France.”

“Thank you. I'm sure King Charles will be grateful to you for holding this fort for him until he can send a governor to take over.”

“Oh, King Charles won't be sending a governor. Or if he does, the governor will meet the same fate as Gérard. I need you to carry a message from me back to your King. The gold fields are part of the Compté du Canada, and thus they are a part of my lands, not a colony that can be governed by a Frenchman from afar. Tell King Charles that, as his loyal vassal, I will send him tribute each year equal to the amount of gold that departed with your ship in the fall. Tell him that I will forgive Gérard's incursion onto my lands if he refrains from sending any more French soldiers until I specifically request assistance. Tell him that he can have our gold as tribute, but will not see any of it if he tries to take it again by force.”

Footnotes:
[1] again, the Kanata river is TTL's name for the OTL St. Lawrence
[2] l'Nuk is the name the people we know as the Mi'kmaq use for themselves. They inhabit what is now the Canadian Maritimes, and contested the fishing grounds off the *Gaspé penninsula with the Stadaconans.
[3] Chevalier is the French word for Knight, meaning that Gérard has been Knighted by the French King. Calling him “Chevalier” is equivalent to calling an Englishman “Sir”.
[4] This is not the same Charles IX as OTL, as he was born after the POD. This Charles IX will live longer, and have sons of his own to succeed him. I haven't really make any more specific decisions than that about what's going on in France...
[5] Again, this is the OTL Chaudiere, which leads to the gold fields.
[6] This is TTL's incarnation of the French Wars of Religion
[7] This term is starting to gain currency as the Kanatian name for North America.
 
I got it done over the weekend, as hopefully y'all can see! I'm not sure if this update lives up to my usual standards of quality writing-wise, but I decided I wanted to put it out there first...

I'm leaving tomorrow morning and will be out of town for a few days, so if anyone has any questions, you'll have to wait until I get back to answer them. Until then, enjoy!
 
Hm. I see that Comte Charles Grignon is getting just a wee bit big for his britches! :D To think that the head of a village of a few hundred is demanding the French to hand over their forts, and a thinly veiled threat added to it. He's lucky that the French are really in no position to refuse his demands, being that he saved them from total destruction by the Abenaki, and the commander who threatened to burn down Stadacona is dead.

King Charles might not mind the arrangement to keep French troops off Stadacona's land in exchange for gold but I somehow doubt that everyone would be pleased at an uppity half-native is putting the terms, so to speak.
 
How much gold is there, there?

I didn't see any references to OTL mines there when googling Quebec mines, for instance.

OTOH, there was a brief mention in the Wiki article on the Chaudière River that gold was discovered in 1823.

If it took until 1823 iOTL to be discovered, there were never any significant mines (were there?), then just how much gold can be extracted?
 
I'm back

Ok, my (short) vacation is over, and I'm back and will start work on this TL again soon. The next update will be a history-book post describing the state of Stadacona in the 1580s (which will be known as the "tributary period" to historians), and then I'll move into another narrative update before a couple more history-book-style ones.
 
Hm. I see that Comte Charles Grignon is getting just a wee bit big for his britches! :D To think that the head of a village of a few hundred is demanding the French to hand over their forts, and a thinly veiled threat added to it. He's lucky that the French are really in no position to refuse his demands, being that he saved them from total destruction by the Abenaki, and the commander who threatened to burn down Stadacona is dead.

King Charles might not mind the arrangement to keep French troops off Stadacona's land in exchange for gold but I somehow doubt that everyone would be pleased at an uppity half-native is putting the terms, so to speak.

Yeah, not everyone will be pleased, and Charles Grignon's "reign" in Stadacona will be relatively short (less than 15 years), partly due to his lack of diplomatic skill...

One thing that didn't come out in the narrative update, is that while Charles Grignon feels like he has enough power over the French soldiers to dictate terms to them, he knows that a more diplomatic approach will be required when dealing with King Charles. Henri, who will travel to France to act as Stadacona's ambassador, will make a more diplomatically-framed offer to King Charles himself, and the threats that Charles Grignon feels comfortable making to the French soldiers will certainly not be made towards anyone higher up.
 
How much gold is there, there?

I didn't see any references to OTL mines there when googling Quebec mines, for instance.

OTOH, there was a brief mention in the Wiki article on the Chaudière River that gold was discovered in 1823.

If it took until 1823 iOTL to be discovered, there were never any significant mines (were there?), then just how much gold can be extracted?

There's not THAT much gold. To be honest, it hasn't yet been the site of any large-scale mining effort OTL. The significance of it is its proximity to Stadacona, and the fact that the legend of a "Golden Kingdom of the Saguenay" is known in certain circles in France. There's at least 56,000 oz of gold there - as that much was mined in three years by the Beauce Placer Company. http://www.goldplacer.ca/quebec-info/top10goldplacerlocationsinquebec/gilbert-river/

There's at least one company that is convinced that there is more gold than that there:
http://www.uragold.com/Beauce_Placer.php

So, we're not talking incredible amounts of gold, not ships and ships full of it by any means. But, enough gold to BUY multiple ships per year full of trade goods... I'm leaving actual quantities vague because I don't have any good sources on how valuable gold was in comparison to other goods in 1580, and how much gold would be required to pay for a ship full of trade goods and the cost of sailing the ship over the Atlantic...
 
So it's not so much to brag about but it's a big enough supply for the rising power of Stadacona to attract more Frenchmen with needed technical skills and luxury items, for a couple of years? Pére Jerome is very old and it would be only a matter of years before he dies, leaving Stadacona without a shepherd to tend to the growing Christian community there. The French wouldn't want the Stadaconans revert back to the old ways and neither would the Grignons who wants to maintain a cordial and friendly relationship with Paris (and still have access to their technology and weapons). You mentioned that the Jesuit missionaries should be arriving to meet this eventual demand for new clergymen to address the community's spiritual needs.

In Paraguay, the Jesuits in cooperation with the colonial authorities had the strategy of gathering the native populations of the region and concentrating in several key settlements to make governing, tax collection and evangelization much faster and efficient. Stadacona is already well known amongst its neighbors for its direct access to European goods and weaponry and lower death rate compared to other villages due to its hospital as well as a place of worship for those who want to embrace the new Christian faith. Comte Charles Grignon is one who embraces strength and power, as evident by leading raids against neighboring tribes and commanding the French to hand over the fort to Stadacona and making demands to keep off Kanata. You're probably wondering where am I going with this? Stadacona already raids enemy settlements for slaves; it's not a big leap to enslave them and resettle them in the area between Stadacona and the acquired fort, under the Jesuit's watchful eyes.

The Jesuit-managed Stadaconan towns would be self-supporting and whatever surplus of goods produced can be traded to Stadacona where it can be traded to the French for more luxury items, livestock and arms. The chiefs of these towns would be managed by men handpicked by the Jesuit missionaries, with Comte Grignon's approval. No longer would the Stadaconans be dependent on the few Frenchmen that have stayed over the years to pass along skills to the natives; the Jesuits would teach it to them as well as others like printing, engravings, writing and becoming a clergymen, which would be needed for further Christianization of Kanata. Formal schools can be built and with a printing press, books can be printed in the Kanatian language.

Big things are happening.
 
So it's not so much to brag about but it's a big enough supply for the rising power of Stadacona to attract more Frenchmen with needed technical skills and luxury items, for a couple of years? Pére Jerome is very old and it would be only a matter of years before he dies, leaving Stadacona without a shepherd to tend to the growing Christian community there. The French wouldn't want the Stadaconans revert back to the old ways and neither would the Grignons who wants to maintain a cordial and friendly relationship with Paris (and still have access to their technology and weapons). You mentioned that the Jesuit missionaries should be arriving to meet this eventual demand for new clergymen to address the community's spiritual needs.

Yup. Sometimes I'm surprised at how much you can see coming, but then I realize that I probably have hinted about as much earlier...

In Paraguay, the Jesuits in cooperation with the colonial authorities had the strategy of gathering the native populations of the region and concentrating in several key settlements to make governing, tax collection and evangelization much faster and efficient. Stadacona is already well known amongst its neighbors for its direct access to European goods and weaponry and lower death rate compared to other villages due to its hospital as well as a place of worship for those who want to embrace the new Christian faith. Comte Charles Grignon is one who embraces strength and power, as evident by leading raids against neighboring tribes and commanding the French to hand over the fort to Stadacona and making demands to keep off Kanata. You're probably wondering where am I going with this? Stadacona already raids enemy settlements for slaves; it's not a big leap to enslave them and resettle them in the area between Stadacona and the acquired fort, under the Jesuit's watchful eyes.

"Captives" are not the same thing as "slaves". I definitely made that confusion when I was first reading about these practices, but there are a couple very important distinctions. The main one is that captives who were left alive (some - mostly the men - were tortured and killed in all Iroquoain societies) were adopted by the clans they were given to, and, after that point became full members of those clans. Children adoptees were raised alongside a clan's natural-born children, and, in the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, for example, adoptees had the same citizenship rights (right to participate in the choosing of sachems and Clan Mothers for example), as anyone else.

What I still haven't grasped entirely is why these adoptees didn't choose to run away back to their birth families. One author I've been reading has attributed it to good treatment of the adoptees by their new clans - although I have a hard time seeing that as enough on its own because one would still have a sentimental attachment to one's birth family. Other factors that may be contributing are: (1) the difficulty of running away across war-torn wilderness to one's home village, (2) cultural values which see adoption as a permanent change such that a runaway adoptee wouldn't be welcome in their birth family any more, (3) the fact that only the obedient captives were adopted in the first place, and (4) Stockholm syndrome.

What is clear from every source I've read is that all captives were either adopted or tortured and killed. There are no records of the keeping of captives as a permanent slave workforce amongst any Iroquoain nations (at least as far as my research has taken me). This might change with the introduction of new European ideas, but, at least so far, "slavery" as such is a foreign concept.

The Jesuit-managed Stadaconan towns would be self-supporting and whatever surplus of goods produced can be traded to Stadacona where it can be traded to the French for more luxury items, livestock and arms. The chiefs of these towns would be managed by men handpicked by the Jesuit missionaries, with Comte Grignon's approval. No longer would the Stadaconans be dependent on the few Frenchmen that have stayed over the years to pass along skills to the natives; the Jesuits would teach it to them as well as others like printing, engravings, writing and becoming a clergymen, which would be needed for further Christianization of Kanata. Formal schools can be built and with a printing press, books can be printed in the Kanatian language.

Big things are happening.

I do like some of your ideas here. Stadacona already has satellite towns (it is at the centre of a cluster of villages which were likely clustered together at least partially for self-defence), although it is just the most powerful member of a confederacy rather than an actual capital as such. While the French recognize the Compte's jurisdiction over the other towns, the relationship between Stadaconan and the surrounding settlements is more democratic than the French think it is. There will be a settlement at the gold fields which will be directly governed from Stadacona itself, and I will conisder the idea of having the Jesuits help manage it.

Self-sufficiency is coming. Within a generation, the Kanatians won't need the French for their skills any more, and a generation after that there will be locally trained priests (no need for foreign missionaries)....
 
Self-sufficiency is coming. Within a generation, the Kanatians won't need the French for their skills any more, and a generation after that there will be locally trained priests (no need for foreign missionaries)....

Relative self sufficiency, any way. Theyre not going to be building ocean going ships for a good while, nor casting their own cannon, I dont suppose.

Also, it would be interesting to see how ready the Church is to ordain natives, whether any native priests have to travel to France for Seminary, etc. Bishops may be foreign born for a long time. Certainly, theyll be appointed by Rome rather than by the locals.

Unless, of course, they go Protestant - which is an open invitation for a major French invasion.

Again, sending Hugueonots off to the 'sauvages' of New France COULD appeal to some French King....
 
PLEASE give me all the nitpicks you can. When I lived in Montreal I knew a couple Mohawks, and it was then that my feminist self became excited about the matrilineal aspects of Iroquoain culture. Sadly, now I live on the West Coast, and know a few Abenakis and Algonquins but no Mohawks or other Iroquoains, so I'm getting most of the cultural information I'm using to write this from books. Some of them are pretty good books, but there are certain types of information that are not very well put down in book form.

And BTW, othyrsyde, I'm actually reading your Children of the Sun right now, and I'm enjoying it so far! It definitely touches on a number of the same themes that I'm hoping to touch on later, and I was actually thinking of giving you a post there to comment on that...

Nice. Well I'll be glad to help once I get caught up, and feel free to PM me too. And thanks for you comments on my TL. That's actually what's keeping me away from AH.com (aside work), doing research for it. Hopefully I'll be caught up this week with yours and can offer those nitpicks and more substantial commentary.
 
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