Dominion of Southern America - Updated November 29, 2017

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Glen, Feb 22, 2010.

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  1. Plumber جعل أميركا أكبر مرة أخرى

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    Well the POD is 1766, right? What're your views regarding when the butterflies begin to fly anyways? IMO the butterflies start at later times in this order: Southern America, USA, Americas, Britain Europe, World

    I look forward to the little scheme you appear to have thought up :D:p

    EDIT: Page 50~~~! Whooo!
     
  2. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Ha! I meant 'piker', not 'redneck'! Little did I know there was another 'redneck' nickname out there, one very different from the US version!!:cool:
     
  3. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Agreed. Unfortunately, we have no real way of gauging that, though I'm guessing most immigrants didn't know exactly what they were getting into climatically.

    Talking about first half 19th century still.
     
  4. Hobelhouse The Cyberpunk Future is Now

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    It is fair to say that most immigrant groups in a pre-climate-control age did tend to congregate in climactically similar areas to where they came from. Witness Scandinavians in Minnesota, Slavs in the Midwest (and Canada, which is US TTL) and Finns in the UP, compared to the more mild East Coast. Part of that has to do with the work they were seeking: factory workers cared less about climate, but people wishing to set up as farmers (like the Scandinavians, and many Germans and Slavs) will go tend to go someplace where the farming conditions are similar. For most of Europe, that excludes much of TTL BNA.
     
  5. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Fried Fat and Fried Butter....wow, just wow. Petite Roche will likely be as cosmopolitan as OTL Little Rock.
     
  6. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    [​IMG]

    Gregor MacGregor was a Scottish soldier, adventurer and colonizer who fought in the South American struggle for independence. Upon his return to England in 1825, he claimed to be Toqui of Patagonia (also known as the Territory of Patagonia). Patagonia was a South American region that with MacGregor's help, drew investors and eventually colonists.

    MacGregor was born in Edinburgh, Scotland 1785. His parents were Captain Daniel MacGregor and Ann Austin. In 1800, he joined the Royal Navy and served until the end of the Napoleonic Wars in 1815. By this time, MacGregor had heard about the independence movements in South America and in the United Provinces of South America in particular, where he arrived in 1816 with the rank of Captain.

    Gregor MacGregor went from South America back to Edinburgh, in 1825 and pronounced that he had been created Toqui (war leader or prince) of Patagonia, an independent land of the native Mapuche on the southernmost region of South America. The leaders of the Mapuche, the loncos, had granted him fertile land with untapped resources, a small number of settlers of British origin, and cooperative natives eager to please, or so MacGregor claimed. He had created the beginnings of a country with civil service, army and democratic government. Now he needed settlers and investment and had come back to the British Empire to give people the opportunity. At the time, British merchants were all too eager to enter the South American market that Spain had denied to them. The region had already become more promising in the wake of wars of South American independence, when the new governments of New Granada and the UPSA had issued bonds in London Royal Exchange to raise money.

    Scottish high society welcomed the colourful figure of MacGregor, and he and his Mapuche wife received many invitations. MacGregor claimed descent of clan MacGregor and that Rob Roy MacGregor had been his direct ancestor. He enhanced his allure by telling about his exploits in the Peninsular War and later in the service of José de San Martín and South American independence. In Edinburgh, MacGregor began to sell land rights for 3 shillings and 3 pence per acre (£0.16/acre or £40.15/km²). A worker's weekly wage at the time was about £1, which meant that the price was very generous. The price steadily rose to 4 shillings (£0.20). Many people willing to have a new start in the new land signed on with their families. MacGregor also opened land offices in Cardiff and Bristol. In 1826 MacGregor raised a loan with the total of £200,000 on behalf of the Patagonian government. It was in the form of 2,000 bearer bonds worth £100 each.

    The Legation of Patagonia chartered a ship and Edinburgh merchants received contracts to provision the ship with food and ammunition. In 1827 the first British settlers, many Scottish and Welsh, departed for Patagonia. They included doctors, lawyers and other professionals who had been promised appropriate positions in the Patagonian civil service. Some had also purchased officer commissions in the Patagonian army.

    The first settlers found the conditions much more rudimentary than they had expected. A few British deserters from Sandy Point had migrated up to join the Mapuche, and would later be joined by ex-convicts transported to the Magellanic Region from Britain. The settlers struggled for the first few decades, but MacGregor still proved charismatic, and more settlers arrived to tame the raw land. Sheep joined the natives herds of cattle, and a nascent society fusing Mapuche, Scottish, Welsh, and English (with a smattering of Spanish and Portuguese speakers from the north) began to form.

    The UPSA attempted once to claim the territory, pushing the frontier further to the south than had been previously claimed. Much to the surprise of many Patagonians who had become disenchanted with MacGregor, Gregor MacGregor himself sailed forth to meet the South Americans in battle. He died leading his rag-tag army in battle, the last of the Toqui to do so. In 1840, the British Crown claimed the remaining lands of Patagonia and combined them with the Magellanic Straits and the Falklands to create the Province of British Patagonia.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Plumber جعل أميركا أكبر مرة أخرى

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    Brilliant! :D
     
  8. Arachnid Arachnid once more.

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    Wow it actually worked, though I wonder about the inclusion of the Mapuche, it seems to go against existing Anglo behaviour in settler colonies (see North America and Australia).
     
  9. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

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    Mmmm...very interesting to see that this succeeded where in OTL pretty much all of them like this failed.

    My only comment would be that, since the UPSA encroached into Patagonia and then MacGregor died in battle defending the boundaries, presumably the UPSA actually managed to complete a large land-grab before the British heard about Patagonia and stepped in with their mother-like embrace over Patagonia? I can't see the British and the UPSA going to war over the borders, so I'm guessing the UPSA managed to move south by a few hundred miles before stopping?
     
  10. Julius Vogel A rascal's rascal

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    So Patagonia will in part fill the place NZ did for Scottish immigrants? If you ever flesh out this particular part you could consider co-opting the story of the Free Church settlement of Dunedin
     
  11. Nugax talks in diagrams

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    So what are the actual borders of British Patagonia, on both sides of the Andes?

    It might not actually be that attractive to settlers - far less livable than New Zealand, much less BSA or Australia. The main colonial structure will probably be corporate ship farms, not smallholders.

    Additionally I don't think the Mapuche would be particularly keen on becoming British subjects, and the UPSA won't be able to project power particularly far at first.

    Plus would the British government really compromise relations with an important economic partner like the UPSA for few thousand odd Scottish morons they can resettle somewhere else?
     
  12. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

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    History suggests that the Welsh will go there at any rate - they did in RL, hence why Argentina is an anomaly in South America for playing rugby at an advanced level.
     
  13. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Very nice.

    I think you can see that in the northerly development so far. The area north of the Great Lakes will be....interesting.:)

    Indeed, indeed....

    Oh, some way into the 21st century, I'm thinking....
     
  14. eschaton Muckraker & Rabblerouser

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    Just a few thoughts on accents in TTL.

    It looks like Patagonia will be mainly settled by Scots, Welsh, and English from the West Country. Both Scots and the West country dialects are rhotic, so I'm guessing that the Patagonian accent will be as well. It will certainly sound less typically British than an Australian or New Zealand accent. Perhaps a good comparison will be something midway between Bajan (without the African influence) and the English spoken in the Maritimes.

    As to accents within the DSA, The accent of course had been pretty well established by the POD. However, it's likely more British influence will creep in. IOTL, for example, New York and Boston English took on a lot of characteristics of "proper" British English because it was perceived to be of high status. Hence the lack of rhotic speech in both, and the distinctive vowels like the "broad a" which link the Boston accent to Received Pronunciation.

    ITTL, I think especially in urban settings you'll see more widespread use of a genteel accent similar to the classic "southern belle" sound from Gone With the Wind. Of course, Canada's dialect stayed divergent and incredibly similar to American English IOTL, so perhaps Southern English will be as resilient. It's possible California and South Florida will end up more British regardless, particularly if immigrants from Britain establish mass settlement before Southerners get there.

    The USA will probably be very similar to OTL. Probably the only major difference will be a bit more of a Quebecois influence around the Upper Great Lakes. Indeed, the area which is OTL's northern Ontario could quite possibly end up Francophone, given it's crummier land that will be settled slowly enough that the Quebecois will have a shot at swamping other migrants.

    BTW, where are the big cities going to be in the DSA? I'm guessing Charleston and New Orleans will the first big two. IOTL, by 1840 New Orleans had roughly 100,000, and Charleston 30,000. I'm guessing that Charleston will play the role of Boston (smaller, center of learning and culture), while New Orleans will be the DSA's New York (big, dirty, but the center of commerce).
     
  15. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

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  16. Hawkeye jimmie status: rustled

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    I approve! :cool:

    I agree with Nugax on Patagonia but I don't want to raise a fuss about it.
     
  17. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    The Oregon Gold Rush is in fact a misnomer, as in fact the term references a series of gold rushes that occurred in the region of the Oregon Territory starting with one of the most famous, the MacKenzie Gold Rush, in 1845. While it is believed gold had been previously found in the region of the MacKenzie River by natives and fur trappers, the Northwest Company had tried to quash most rumors of gold to prevent having its domain invaded by prospectors. However, natives traded sailors out of Gray Island gold, and the word of the precious metal spread as the sailors returned to the United States. Thus were the 'Forty-fivers' born, prospectors who dared the lengthy voyage by land and sea to seek their fortune in the lands north of the 50th parallel. While the initial gold fields petered out, a steady flow of other small sites would keep dreamers and schemers heading for the region for more than a decade, and would help spur the United States out of its economic slump, as well as increase the numbers of settlers to the American Pacific Northwest.

    [​IMG]
    Prospectors having a rare moment of relaxation during the Oregon Gold Rush
     
  18. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    You're welcome.

    A very good question. Any suggestions out there who is most likely to migrate from France to Cygne Noir (West Australia)?

    Indeed. I have been rather sucked into World Cup Mania myself! I think my mind might meltdown entirely on Wednesday....but yes, I think the evolution of sport in this world will be interesting, and will be the subject of several updates over time, though we're not quite there yet. Most folks in the world are still trying to eck out a living and sport hasn't really taken off yet.

    Curling clearly predates the POD, and given the number of Scottish coming to TTL's northern US, we can be all but assured that it will be one of their sports. An alternate form of hockey will too, though it shall be called Ice Hurley, I suspect.

    While there undoubtedly will be football games played ITTL, they will likely have different rules and forms that only vaguely resemble what we in the modern world are familiar with. The terms soccer and rugby probably will not even exist.

    The games will be somewhat different - time will tell how whether the two countries will be united or disunited by sport....

    Rougher is not quite right. Indians are having a rougher time in some ways (not easy to do compared to OTL!) but easier in others. Basically, Native Americans who settle down, farm, and pay their taxes are pretty well left alone. So called 'wild indians' (a term popular in both the USA and BSA) however are driven out of 'civilized' areas, in the case of the BSA to the West, and in the case of the USA to the North.

    Like Lacrosse perhaps?:)

    Note that cricket definitely and baseball probably predate the POD in their development if not exact codification. Cricket will remain popular within the Empire, though I suspect the rise of baseball in the US will be parallel to OTL, especially given the likely relation to Irish sport and the influx of Irish on their way to America.

    As for the ATL forms of 'football', time will tell....
     
  19. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    The Great American Pastime - Baseball
    The Great Southern Pastime - Cricket (boy, you should see those Cuban Cricketers!)
     
  20. stevep Member

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    Glen

    That sounds different from OTL? I was presuming from a far more rapidly expanding US they would still be forced off their lands wherever practical by the settlers. Although arguably since there should be less settlers spread over a wider area there might be less pressure on any able to stay on some of their lands.

    Like you I'm deep into the football. Coverage on the TV now and in ~35 minutes the game actually starts. Just hope we don't make the sort of mess of it we did last Friday.

    Steve