Dominion of Southern America - Updated November 29, 2017

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Glen, Feb 22, 2010.

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  1. stevep Member

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    And conversely, if OTL they choose the US because they didn't like the cold climate and limited economic opportunities of Canada, with its much smaller population, many of them will choose the far more attractive BSA option available in TTL.

    What time period are you referring to here? Possibly in the early days, although not so sure. However for much of the latter part of the century at least Canada welcomed settlers from just about every part of Europe.

    Steve
     
  2. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    After the death of Chief Black Hawk and the US Legion's driving of Wild Indians from the region, settlement between the Mississippi and Des Moines Rivers rapidly progressed. Eventually settlers in the 1840s, centered at the city of Des Moines petitioned Congress to create a new state in the region, which came to be called Mississippi.

    The State of Mississippi takes its name, of course, from the river that forms its eastern boundary. It shares its southern boundary with the State of Missouri, made by the Des Moines River to 40 degrees 30 minutes north, which parallel comprises the rest of its southern boundary. The state's western boundary is comprised of the Missouri River to the Sioux River, and then along the Sioux River to its source. The northern boundary of the state is a line drawn due east from the source of the Big Sioux to the Minnesota River, which it then follows to where it meets the Mississippi River.

    DSA Mississippi.PNG
     
  3. Dean501 Go Yankees

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    Well by living in Arkansas I can tell you that your 50% right.And that is depending on where you are.

    Yes we are the Walmart capitol of the world, the first to introduce "Fried Fat" and "Fried Butter" but all that is the out in the country.Little Rock, where I pay homeage to, is one of the best places in the U.S if you ask me (and I lived in NY for 10 years).

    Were really liberal, weve got a awesome music scene, and the Hipster:Redneck population here is ATLEAST 2:1.

    Of course from the outside Arkansas seems really redneck, and in alot of places it is, its not the steryotypical Bush Lovin', Wild West state I thought it would be when I moved here 8 years ago...

    Anyway that was just my two cents on it, coming from a Arkansan.
     
  4. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Got it. Thanks for the clarification and update. Yeah, not rednecks....
     
  5. Plumber جعل أميركا أكبر مرة أخرى

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    New map!
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    I think the areas around the Great Lakes will be states soon. I remember reading that American immigration to the region stopped after the War of 1812 and changed westward, so that'll be butterflied away.

    It seems the TL is finally getting around to a DSA, too! :D How long to you plan to do the TL, Glen?

    1.png
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2010
  6. General_Finley Liberty Prime

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    French West Australia just makes me so very happy:D.
     
  7. Plumber جعل أميركا أكبر مرة أخرى

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    I just wondered what the Westralian accent would be like :D

    With the World Cup going on right now, I wonder how sports will evolve differently in the USA and DSA. I can imagine the US might be more interested in hockey and maybe even curling, but I wonder about the South's development. Will they be more interested in soccer (or will it be called football?) because of British influence? I imagine American football will be popular, as it is very popular in the South IOTL and I don't know how popular rugby is in Canada (not much I'm guessing).
     
  8. stevep Member

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    Plumber

    Canada has a rugby team. Weren't doing too badly about a decade back but seem to have gone off the boil a bit since then.

    In terms of whether the BSA were more interested in football or American football that, presuming both evolve into forms reasonably comparable to what we have now, probably depends on how relations between the BSA and US are. If pretty good then American football may well become popular, although the wider popularity of football and also the links with Britain, will probably make that more dominant. [Similarly, probably rugby and cricket are likely to have significant followings]. This is only really likely to change if there is a serious falling out between Britain and the BSA.

    If relations between the US and BSA are rocky, say some equivalent to the 1812 conflict to make the BSA see the US as a clear threat to its liberty, then US sports are likely to have less impact.

    The other factor might be that with the Indians having an even rougher ride in the US, but decent relations with the BSA/Britain, is that sports with Indian connections are likely to be influenced as well.

    Steve
     
  9. Plumber جعل أميركا أكبر مرة أخرى

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    I knew it had a team, but how popular is rugby in Canada? I also noticed that cricket seems to be much less popular in Canada than other parts of the Commonwealth.
     
  10. Rubberduck3y6 Pronoiar, Cyzicus & Aphrodis'n

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    I maybe completely wrong here, but looking at sports in OTL Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India cricket is popular in all four plus other former British colonies like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Zimbabwe and the Windies, rugby's big in the first three and football (soccer) hasn't had as much of an impact in those countries. Perhaps someone else could shed some light on the reasons behind this. Assuming that these same reasons apply ITTL I think cricket (there's a lot of standing around and breaks so the hot, humid BSA climate shouldn't be a problem), rugby and some USAmerican sports perhaps more popular among ordinary BSAmericans due to US cultural influence would be the most popular sports. I think Latin American influence (particularly if the BSA expands southwards) might be the main avenue which popularises soccer in the BSA. Just my (uninformed) thoughts on the matter.
     
  11. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

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    Haha. If you think that frying fat and butter makes you bad, you should see the Scottish deep-fat frying Mars Bars (caramel-filled chocolate bars)...

    And you've got me again...what is a hipster?

    You are, of course, right. The answer to your question, though I'm no expert so my analysis will probably be slightly off, but I believe it is in the origins of the sports. You have cricket, then you have football and rugby. Cricket originated - or rather, finally evolved in the 19th century - as a sport for gentleman of quality, and was particularly popular among British officers and the English elite. Thus, it spread to the colonies through these forms and was picked up by the countries which had particularly large numbers of well-to-do British upper classes - places like India, South Africa, eventually Australia, and the West Indies etc. I suspect Canada failed to get into it largely down to their evolution of ice hockey and from their strong US influence. This didn't tend to spread to countries of other nationalities as it was always an elite sport, not widely played until later on and not the kind of thing to be played much abroad - British officers and the landed classes weren't likely to congregate in large enough numbers to play regularly outside of a war abroad, and who is going to concentrate on cricket when there's a war to be fought? From there, the sport filtered down to the rest of the population and became widely popular in those countries.

    Then there's football. Football evolved as a public school game, and that's where the Laws of the Game were formed, but I believe as the public school students left school they were in large enough numbers to continue playing the game, the game also spread like a virus across the public school of the north of England, and football players were then present in large enough numbers to keep playing the game frequently but tended to stay at home rather than spreading the game abroad to the colonies, not being of the upper classes so much. Eventually the game filtered down to the lower rungs of society so that in the 1870s and 1880s, when the first great clubs were forming, football had become the working man's game. Teams were regularly formed as teams representing the communities they came from and to this day even the biggest football teams in the UK are expected to represent their local communities and run charities and local development programs for children etc etc. This is also the reason why the American franchise model is so unpopular in the UK and Europe - because teams are seen as supposed to be representing their locales, not their owners. Anyway, because football became so widespread, because it was so easy to play, and because it was a common man's game, the sport spread to Europe rather than to the colonies, and from there spread to South America largely through British businessmen teaching the game to locals, and then spread to Africa and Asia later on.

    Finally, there's rugby, which is the hardest game to decipher. Its origin comes from football, where a disagreement over the idea of holding the ball with your hands formed an irreversible split, but it developed much the same. However, it never seemed to be so popular, probably because for a sport less played amongst the elite, it was harder to play on limited resources - i.e. you needed goalposts with a high bar between them, as in American Football, and a more irregular ball. I think, as a more aggressive and forceful game, it was probably more popular amongst the hardier communities - it was very big early on among Welsh mining communities, for instance - I guess it didn't spread to Europe largely because football was easier and got there first, though I'm really not sure. I guess from there it spread to the colonies because as the game became professional around the tour of the century, players tended to tour the British colonies and spread the game there, whereas they had less interest in going to foreign countries in less exotic locations, and where they were more likely to be treated as outsiders. Notably France did pick up rugby (note France's location to the UK), and Italy though I can't explain that so well. Honestly, I'm really hazy on why rugby spread to the colonies better than football, but that's my best guess. In particular, note that Australia developed its own version of football/rugby which explains further the lack of interest in football there, though not the popularity of rugby.
     
  12. Plumber جعل أميركا أكبر مرة أخرى

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    I feel I must use this UrbanDictionary definition because it is a delicate rarity--an actual serious definition:
    "Hipsters are a subculture of men and women typically in their 20's and 30's that value independent thinking, counter-culture, progressive politics, an appreciation of art and indie-rock, creativity, intelligence, and witty banter.

    Although "hipsterism" is really a state of mind,it is also often intertwined with distinct fashion sensibilities. Hipsters reject the culturally-ignorant attitudes of mainstream consumers, and are often be seen wearing vintage and thrift store inspired fashions, tight-fitting jeans, old-school sneakers, and sometimes thick rimmed glasses. Both hipster men and women sport similar androgynous hair styles that include combinations of messy shag cuts and asymmetric side-swept bangs. Such styles are often associated with the work of creative stylists at urban salons, and are usually too "edgy" for the culturally-sheltered mainstream consumer. The "effortless cool" urban bohemian look of a hipster is exemplified in Urban Outfitters and American Apparel ads which cater towards the hipster demographic.

    Despite misconceptions based on their aesthetic tastes, hipsters tend to be well educated and often have liberal arts degrees, or degrees in maths and sciences, which also require certain creative analytical thinking abilities. Consequently many hipsters tend to have jobs in the music, art, and fashion industries. It is a myth that most hipsters are unemployed and live off of their parent's trust funds.

    Hipsters shun mainstream societal conventions that apply to dating preferences and traditional "rules" of physical attraction. It is part of the hipster central dogma not to be influenced by mainsream advertising and media, which tends to only promote ethnocentric ideals of beauty. The concepts of androgyny and feminism have influenced hipster culture, where hipster men are often as thin as the women they date. The muscular and athletic all-American male ideal is not seen as attractive by confident and culturally-empowered hipster women who instead view them as symbols of male oppression, sexism, and misogyny. Likewise, culturally-vapid sorority-type girls with fake blond hair, overly tanned skin, and "Britney Spears tube-tops" are not seen as attractive by cultured hipster males who instead see them as symbols of female insecurity, low self-esteem, and lack of cultural intelligence and independent thinking. Hipsters are also very racially open-minded, and the greatest number of interracial couples in any urban environment are typically found within the hipster subculture.

    Although hipsters are technically conformists within their own subculture, in comparison to the much larger mainstream mass, they are pioneers and leaders of the latest cultural trends and ideals. For example, the surge of jeans made to look old and worn (i.e. "distressed"), that have become prevalent at stores such as The Gap, American Eagle, Abercrombie and Fitch, and Hollister, were originally paraded by hipsters who shopped in thrift stores years before such clothing items were mass produced and sold to the mainstream consumer. The true irony here is that many of the detractors of hipster culture are in fact unknowingly following a path that hipsters have carved out years before them. This phenomena also applies to music as well, as many bands have become successful and known to mainstream audiences only because hipsters first found and listened to them as early-adopters of new culture. Once certain concepts of fashion and music have reached mainstream audiences, hipsters move on to something new and improved.

    Because of the rise of various online photo-blog and social networking sites, insights into urban hipster culture is reaching sheltered suburban audiences at an exponential rate. Cultural "norms" have been deconstructed by hipster culture as a whole. Hipsterism is often dismissed as just an image thing by some, but the culture as a whole is effecting changes in society, leading to feelings of insecurity and resentment in people who are no longer a part of the cultural ruling class. For example, a lot of anti-hipster sentiment evidently comes from culturally-clueless suburban frat boy types who feel that the more sensitive, intelligent, and culturally aware hipster ideal threatens their insecure sense of masculinity. Anti-hipster sentiment often comes from people who simply can't keep up with social change and are envious of those who can."
     
  13. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

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    An interesting answer, if written from a somewhat pro-hipster slant (I understand that you didn't write it, of course). I think I understand, thanks.
     
  14. Rubberduck3y6 Pronoiar, Cyzicus & Aphrodis'n

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    Thanks for the explanation, I thought it was probably something to do with class.

    Another factor I've thought of that would act against football (soccer) becoming a major sport in BSA is immigration patterns. Without the southern slave states TTL's US will probably start to industrialise earlier (as AFAIW OTL US industrialisation didn't kick off until after the ACW), so will attract more working class immigrants than the BSA which will still be a predominantly agricultural economy with limited job openings for new immigrants, thus making BSA not very open to European cultural influence (apart for elite British culture - including cricket and, to a lesser extent, rugby). This is obviously speculative as I'm assuming that economic development follows a similar pattern as it did IOTL.

    ----

    Slightly more on topic, the larger size of Mississippi compared to its OTL analogue Iowa, initially surprised me but I suppose without the 49th parallel border, the Minnesota analogue can go further north, perhaps to Lake Winnipeg? Also, with more space will this mean that there'll be larger midwestern states generally?
     
  15. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

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    One thing I forgot to add earlier. Ice hockey may be butterflied entirely - in RL it was a game invented by the Scots-Irish immigrants to Canada in something like the 1870s. With predicted smaller immigration patterns there by British migrants, it's my belief that it's entirely plausible that by pure statistical chance, there won't be the right people to invent the game this time round. Of course, an alternative, non-RL ice game is entirely plausible to replace it, but as curling, will probably be nowhere near as popular.

    As for football not spreading to the BSA, I have to unfortunately agree, though I do admit that as a typical British football-runs-through-my veins fan I am thinking of any way I can to argue for a boost in its popularity :D
     
  16. stevep Member

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    Plumber

    I think rugby is a fairly minor game in Canada, in terms of support and finances, but could be wrong.

    For cricket, as Falastur says much of it was reliant on being spread by the British colonial elite. Although actually I think the 1st international tour - apart from one to France called off because France was just entering revolutionary turmoil - was to Canada shortly after it became independent.

    The other big issue here of course is the climate. The other dominions and places such as the sub-continent and Windies are much better placed for a game that requires long spells of good weather than probably much of Canada is. Another factor might be that the bulk of the Canadian settlement was still fairly thinly spread and in largely wooded lands in the east so there might have been insufficient population for players and spectators plus a lack of suitable grounds?

    Steve
     
  17. stevep Member

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    I think cricket has longer and deeper routes than you suggest as its been played in various forms for centuries. However agree that it was probably largely spread by the colonial elites, especially as they would have more time and resources than the average colonists, who are busy getting the crop in or working hard to earn their living.

    It did however put down deep roots in places like the Windies and the sub-continent amongst the local population so might do similarly in the BSA, especially if it does remain overwhemingly agricultural.

    Again football has been played, in some form or another, for centuries, although the codification of the rules may have been done in the 19thC public schools. It's big advantage, possibly the key factor in its spread is as you say its very easy to play. You need a rudimentary ball, a bit of open space and a few colleagues to play it with and that's about all. As such it has always been a more working class game, both in Britain and the wider world. Similarly this also means that it is easier for it to take root in new countries, both because its easier to play and because that means the nation can develop successful players and teams more easily. [Since success is always useful for boosting popularity].


    I think the problem with rugby spreading might be less to do with the material required and more with the physical demands on the players. Especially for the forwards with the demands in the scrum. This really needs powerful and well fed players who are taught to work closely together as a team. As such its probably a lot more difficult to export to poorer countries because there's a much smaller pool of players. This is also probably why, along with the climate, it never took off in the sub-continent?

    Rugby, or at least the union version, is becoming more widespread with teams from various places inside and outside Europe challenging the old strongholds related to the spread of the British empire. Argentina is now a prominent nation. Rumania were making progress before much of their team died in the revolution and Italy and Japan are showing promise, although a long way to go yet.

    Steve
     
  18. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

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    All fair points. I was aware of the old origins of football and cricket, and I tried briefly to allude to it, but I ignored it as I believe that it was only around the vaguely 1850s period that both became the kind of sport likely to spread and become very popular in the way that both sports are now. Football before the current codes and before it became a public school game was a ludicrously rough game played by entire villages over "pitches" which were in reality all the land between neighbouring settlements. They were popular for sheer recreational value but they weren't the kind of thing likely to become organised sport. Eventually the sport tamed - largely because in its original form it kept being banned by royal decree and was in fact on several occasions considered to be rioting, and I think as time passed the increasingly firm arm of the government meant that its original form wasn't going to be allowed to carry on. As for cricket, you are of course right that it wasn't always the upper-class game stated, and I am aware that a number of football teams originated from cricket clubs wanting something to play over the winter months - Sheffield Wednesday F.C. for instance were the Wednesday cricket club of Sheffield, etc - but for the reasons stated before it was spread as an upper-class game, and because it was just that much more tame and patient, whereas late 19th century English working men wanted more rough and ready, energetic games to relieve their tensions.
     
  19. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Technically, he might not be born ITTL given his late birthdate compared to the POD. However, I could see a 'brother of the same name' making an impact in history....in fact, you give me an idea....:D
     
  20. DuQuense Commisioned Officer CSN

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    Maybe a Baseball equivalent, Whe are going to be looking for a slow Paced [Rural, Small Town] Summer Game.

    I can see The Rodeo developing in the SW, same as OTL.