Dominion of Southern America - Updated November 29, 2017

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Glen, Feb 22, 2010.

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  1. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    As mentioned before, I think this is an important point - a shifting of workforce and thus an industry based shortage, not a general population one. Should make for some interesting times.:)
     
  2. Ridwan Asher Jungle Arab

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    Good Ottoman news is a good news indeed !! :D :cool:

    However, what happened to Muhammad Ali ? Did he even ever get to visit Egypt ITTL ?
     
  3. Vosem Well-Known Member

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    May I ask, Glen, who is Porter's VP? Remember, OTL Porter died in 1844.
     
  4. Nugax talks in diagrams

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    @stevep: Remember until the railroads opened up the west in the 1880s 'Canada' was effectively just Ontario for British immigrants - the BSAs regular farmland (before you get to the plains and desert) is roughly five to ten times larger. I think the British immigrants will only go to certain places though - the Coastal cities and the Piedmonts of Appalachia and Arkansas because they won't be interested in the work on offer in the gulf and atlantic lowlands and it'll be annoyingly hot ;).
     
  5. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    I think both of you make cogent points about the difficulties in a 'United' British Western Hemisphere. Indeed, Canada had quite a few growing pains IOTL as well! As the title indicates, there will be a Dominion eventually, the real questions are where and when....
     
  6. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    So it was bait and switch. I imagine we will see similar practices ITTL as well. The real questions will be to what extent, and where?
     
  7. stevep Member

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    Now there's an interesting hint.;)


    Could make for an interesting situation.

    I don't think that's getting too far ahead. If the French are settling or making noises about settling either, let alone both, of NZ and W Australia there will be concern.

    Steve
     
  8. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    John Howe U.E. (pre-slaver post-nomial)
    [​IMG]

    John Howe was the patriarch of one of the most prominant Loyalist families in North Carolina. Originally a native of Boston, he was an ardent supporter of the Crown during the American Revolution, printing broadsides against the Rebels that would see him banished from the State of Massachussetts. He fled with his family to the British Province of North Carolina in the closing days of the Revolution. There he set up a printing business and established two newspaper, the New Bern Journal, and magazine, the North Carolina Magazine, in the provincial capital, New Bern.

    John Howe died in 1836, just prior to the declaration of the Confederation and the war. His son, John Howe, Jr. continued in his father's footsteps, remaining steadfastly loyal to the Crown. Their printing establishment was burned to the ground by rebels and he fled to Loyalist strongholds further inland. He continued printing throughout the war, lambasting the renegades with a crusading zeal. After the retaking of New Bern by the British, John Howe, Jr. restored the family business, and would play a leading role in the future of British Southern America.

    John Howe, Jr. U.E.2.
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Before getting too much into the replies, I'd like to start by first noting that I was answering about the Hispanic Upper Class in Cuba, not the population of Cuba as a whole. English is spreading in the Upper Class through Immigration and Assimilation much faster than in the Lower Class or even the Middle Class of Cuba at this point in the timeline. At least that is how I have been conceptualizing it. I could be wrong, however. Let us explore together through discussion....

    The British also agreed to protect the French language when they took over there IOTL....ITTL they have made no such agreements.

    Thanks for the counter-examples.

    Similar situation applies ITTL.

    I am surprised a bit as to how much British settlement you imply here. I still thought Guyana rather underpopulated in the first half of the 19th Century (not that I don't agree that English is rapidly coming to the fore.

    Ah, but what of bilingualism? That I bet did go up at least among the Boers if not the 'Coloured' though even there I suspect some uptick.

    Interesting. One suspects that a creole will continue ITTL as well, though with more heavy English influences. Why did the northern islands speak English?

    And ITTL too the lower classes will lag behind in adoption of English. It's the 'Upper Classes' that I will mostly be referring to who are working towards English. Recall too that it is looking even more likely these islands will be staying English than it did OTL, so people are even more likely to try to at least become bilingual initially.

    Good points.

    45% of a million is still about 450,000! But Spanish Migration will be replaced by Anglophone migration, at least in the Upper and Middle Classes. Some of this has already happened by the time of the Slaver Rebellion, but perhaps I need to decrease proportion for this time period. However, the trend will continue.

    Only if the British allow. So far the British are less inclined to coddle other languages/religions than it was in the case of OTL Quebec (the likelihood of Cuba being seized is lower ITTL than that of Quebec IOTL, but then again, they just had a rebellion and may need ways to mollify the masses).

    Yep - they're English bound, though again, the Upper Class will lead the way, and the Lower Classes will cling to Creoles for decades.
     
  10. eschaton Muckraker & Rabblerouser

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    A bilingual elite is of course highly likely. The rich switching over to English entirely is unlikely within a century if ever, both because they'll want to be able to converse with the lower classes (for economic reasons if not socially), and because they'll be well positioned to use their bilingual skills to further British trade in Mexico and South America.

    It was. Under Dutch rule, they could find barely anyone willing to settle it. They let the British settle in the region in 1746. By 1760, the British comprised a majority of the white population along the Demerara River.

    In modern South African, Boers are essentially those white Afrikaans speakers who migrated out of the Cape and became semi-nomadic farmers. Given they ran as far from British rule as possible, I'd say they didn't have fluency in English at the top of their list. I'm sure the ones who stayed behind (who today identify as Afrikaners more) were quite often bilingual however.

    It's not entirely clear. The three islands were exchanged through a series of wars between Britain, France, and the Netherlands numerous times before settling into the Netherlands orbit at the end of the Napoleonic wars. Britain settled people on the islands, particularly Saba, where a lot of people to this day have Scottish and Irish blood. The islands are also small, and surrounded by larger anglophone islands, so a large proportion of people may have come over, as slaves or freemen, from the adjoining islands like Saint Kitts. And the Netherlands probably didn't care enough to institute their culture again once they had firm control.
     
  11. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    I am honored that Vosem has chosen to elaborate on the US presidential elections of this timeline. I'm reposting here his ideas on the discussion thread for comment. I think that there needs to be a couple small changes, but overall I don't see why it wouldn't stand mostly as is (have to look at some of the birthdates of that last few people, though).

     
  12. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    I would move the event where Jay had to drop out to ensure Adams election to 1800, not 1796. This would be more likely with the closer race that year, and also puts it in a better position for Condorcet to influence the method used in balloting in the amendment.

    While this may be plausible, I don't really like it. It just sets things up for more mischief down the timeline and seems against the spirit of the times with an electoral amendment to ensure the proper election, why wouldn't they change the spare tire. The death is fine, its the precedent I don't like. Could still leave unfilled during Jefferson's presidency but that would then spur a movement towards an amendment overturning the precedent.

    Neither ticket in the 1820 election has a Virginian! This seems hard to believe for the time.

    Check on early life of Monroe. Somehow I seem to recall questioning him being a major political figure ITTL....also, tough to beat a ticket with Virginia on it without a Virginian to balance. Just a thought.

    Again, don't like this idea of leaving Veep spots vacant due to death.

    Again I must ask, what's happened to Virginia? Also, I need someone to check the births of all these Veeps and defeated opponents. How far into the divergence were they born?

    I don't think you'd have OTL's John Tyler (unless this is a different Tyler). Also need to check those opponents for births. I like the bit about the nomination, feels right. Like having a Virginian on the ticket. If you're going to have Democrat ticket not have a Virginian at this point in time, there probably should be someone from a 'western' state, like Ohio.:)

    Overall great effort. I will be interested to see what others think. Some of this will end up in the timeline officially, I am certain.
     
  13. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    There will be barriers to black immigration to the North. However, labor starved America isn't going to say no entirely.


    More or less.

    Um, maybe....:rolleyes:
     
  14. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    They are doing well in Quebec, have a strong minority presence in Nova Scotia, Maine, Vermont, New York, and Ontario. Most of the Quebeckers who stray farther than that get assimilated into the Anglosphere. However, most Quebeckers who have anything to do with more than their local community are bilingual. conversely, there's a fair amount of bilingualism in French among American Elite, and even the common man in those Quebec border states. More French loan words are entering common English use (or not fading out).

    On the other hand, no sign of a French president for the near future, no.
     
  15. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    If any, I'd think the Iowa analogue might be a candidate.

    Thoughts, comments?
     
  16. Vosem Well-Known Member

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    Sure. To be honest, I put it at 1796 just because I felt it being 1800 would be too much like OTL (and '96 had the potential to be as weird as '00 was in OTL).

    Sure. It's just that since the amendment was OTL and didn't include a vice-presidential clause, I didn't think to include one ATL.

    OTL, New York was the most populous state in the USA starting with the Census of 1810 when it dislodged Virginia and ending 1970 when it was dislodged by California.

    Really? Monroe was part of the middle class, studied with John Marshall in his early life, got a good education, fought in the Revolution, elected to the House of Burgesses in 1782. I see no reason for this to be butterflied away.

    Some of the later ones definitely don't fit. I'll check in the morning.

    John Tyler was born 1790, but his parents married in 1761 (before the POD), and I see nothing butterflying away their use of the name John. It's not exactly the same person, but it's his name, same parents, a very, very similar upbringing. It's almost John Tyler, let's put it that way.
     
  17. Plumber جعل أميركا أكبر مرة أخرى

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    Yeah, the Iowa analogue would probably be called Des Moines (cooler :cool:) or Mississippi (more plausible).
     
  18. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Interesting question, and one that will be explored further once we get a bit further into the timeline. There will be effects from Southern America, be assured. Less so Mexico since it's not really 'British'.
     
  19. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Thanks for the shout out! Great to have you reading along.

    Not the Mormons. Closest is the Deist movement in America, which is semiheretical, most popular among the educated classes in America (indeed, many a president will be of that tradition, though not the majority of Americans).
     
  20. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    I don't really have firm numbers in mind, but I would venture to guess that perhaps the settler population is half that of OTL at this same point in history, putting the settler to convict ration at 2:1 rather than 4:1 - which would put the population at about 60% of OTL for 1840.

    That sound about right to everyone?