Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

19th century wargaming.

that's completely geektacular! and, I've never seen anything quite like it, completely original.

additionally there's the point that it wouldn't be so geeky in this timeline, with its rather lobg and dignified tradition. so you must be applauded as well for turning wargaming into something you might find masons doing to pass an afternoon.
 
that's completely geektacular! and, I've never seen anything quite like it, completely original.

additionally there's the point that it wouldn't be so geeky in this timeline, with its rather lobg and dignified tradition. so you must be applauded as well for turning wargaming into something you might find masons doing to pass an afternoon.

W.W.A.F.T

I think it was pretty popular at times OTL. Didn't HG Wells famously write a set of rules for when he played games with his children? Not exactly a wealthy person and definitely not a militarist.;)

Steve
 

Glen

Moderator
that's completely geektacular!

Glad you like it!

and, I've never seen anything quite like it, completely original.

Good - it did strike me as rather untrod territory...

additionally there's the point that it wouldn't be so geeky in this timeline, with its rather long and dignified tradition. so you must be applauded as well for turning wargaming into something you might find masons doing to pass an afternoon.

Yes, it will be a more popular pastime than in ours, and no, there won't be nearly the stigma of OTL attached to it. But, that story is for a later time...
 

Glen

Moderator
W.W.A.F.T

I think it was pretty popular at times OTL. Didn't HG Wells famously write a set of rules for when he played games with his children? Not exactly a wealthy person and definitely not a militarist.;)

Steve

Wargaming has been more of a hobbyist pastime IOTL I believe, but yes, it is true that HG did write a guide to wargaming called "Little Wars", essentially a code on how to play with toy soldiers from all I can gather.
 

Glen

Moderator
Thomas_Malthus.jpg


Thomas Robert Malthus had been a rather prominent economic theorist and philosopher in the late 18th and early 19th century, but his works on the limits of population did not spread much further than his native England at the time and fell out of favor after the Reform revolution even there. He had become almost forgotten, along with many other theorists of the time who did not fit well with the prevailing fashion of the 19th century, liberalism. It was not in fact until nearly a century later that his works gained a new life through his great-grandson, Henry Thomas Malthus. Henry Thomas Malthus wrote the popular work "The Reproduction Trap" published in 1897, based in large part on the work of his great grandfather, but with his own interpretations as to their implications for the upcoming 20th century. With the increases in population seen in the latter half of the 19th century due to advances in public health and medicine, the book hit a popular chord with many who were growing concerned with the possibilities. Some read retrospectively into the great economic decline of the 1880s and the subsequent Global War the first modern warning of population collapse due to profligate population growth.

pg040b.gif
 
I'm gonna go ahead and BUMP this thread, hopefully we can get some more updates soon? :) I'd have commented on the last one, unfortunately it's a little out of my depth (good to see more detail added to the TL though).
 
Once again, AH teaches me just as much as any other method. I knew what "Malthusian" meant, but for some reason I'd never considered who Malthus was. The University of Ian is doing fine work once again. hoping for more lectures from Professor Glen soon! :)
 

Glen

Moderator
While petroleum products had become important first in the 19th century, with the hub of production and innovation being tristate Pennsylvania-Ohio-Ontario triangle of the United States of America, with the arising of electrification for lighting at the turn of the century, production became less critical for a brief moment in time. However, with new internal combustion engines being developed nearly at the same time, this lull in the importance of petroleum was a brief one. However, petroleum production in the 20th century would be dominated not by the United States, but by the British Dominion of Southern America, and Britain's ally, the Ottoman Empire.

In 1901, the long suspected productivity of the area of another triangle, this time the Dominion tri-provincial area of Lousiana-Texas-Arkansas was proven dramatically with the discovery of the large petroleum well at the Simcoe Swell, named for John Graves Simcoe, as so many features in the Dominon were, though before the discovery of petroleum there, the Swell may have been among the least impressive of his namesakes. This started the Southern Petrol Bonanza and gave birth to the Southern Petroleum Company (it's major rival, the Anglo-Texas Petroleum Company, would be born later with the exploitation of the rich East Texas Fields. By the 1920s, Dominion industry was dominated by the triumvirate of cotton, sugar, and above all, petroleum.

Lucas_gusher.jpg
 

Glen

Moderator
I'm gonna go ahead and BUMP this thread, hopefully we can get some more updates soon? :)

Hopefully you have found my small offering acceptable.

I'd have commented on the last one, unfortunately it's a little out of my depth (good to see more detail added to the TL though).

Ah, don't let that stop you, now! Glad you appreciate the detail.
 
Hopefully you have found my small offering acceptable...Ah, don't let that stop you, now! Glad you appreciate the detail.

Indeed I did, thanks for the update! From what I can gather, it seems that Texas (of all the provinces) will have a pretty heavy influence within the Dominion, and I suppose it was only a matter of time that petrol would make its mark on Southern America's economy. Incidentally, I was unaware that the "Erie Triangle" was that useful as far as petroleum products (I did know that the Appalachians, inclusive of parts of Pennsylvania, is full of frackable shale, my Papaw actually lives within spitting distance of one of the fields).

On a cultural note, would you say that (beyond Home Country anyway) Texas has the biggest influence on the DSA, or is it pretty evenly spread out between the provinces? And is there an analogue for OTL's Quebec in the Caribbean states, or am I reading too much into their self-identity within the DSA?
 

Glen

Moderator
Once again, AH teaches me just as much as any other method. I knew what "Malthusian" meant, but for some reason I'd never considered who Malthus was. The University of Ian is doing fine work once again. hoping for more lectures from Professor Glen soon! :)

I am gladdened that our exploration of alternate history has led to increasing your knowledge of our history - a goal I believe all good alternate history should aspire to. I am gratified, citizen.
 

Glen

Moderator
Indeed I did, thanks for the update! From what I can gather, it seems that Texas (of all the provinces) will have a pretty heavy influence within the Dominion,

Indeed it has and will have. Texas is always big...

and I suppose it was only a matter of time that petrol would make its mark on Southern America's economy.

Yes, and its impact will be even stronger without the industrial north.

Incidentally, I was unaware that the "Erie Triangle" was that useful as far as petroleum products (I did know that the Appalachians, inclusive of parts of Pennsylvania, is full of frackable shale, my Papaw actually lives within spitting distance of one of the fields).

Yep, it was the biggest oil producing area in the 19th century, fascinatingly enough.

On a cultural note, would you say that (beyond Home Country anyway) Texas has the biggest influence on the DSA, or is it pretty evenly spread out between the provinces? And is there an analogue for OTL's Quebec in the Caribbean states, or am I reading too much into their self-identity within the DSA?

Texas has a big influence, but most of the provinces have their own distinct culture and influences on the rest of the Dominion. It makes the USA look positively homogenous. In some ways, the Province of Indiana is a Native American equivalent of Quebec within the DSA. In other ways, Hispaniola is (or a mix of Quebec and Newfoundland). And in yet other ways, Cuba is (especially with regard to Catholicism, but less so language - though you can make a slightly similar case for British Louisiana). None are quite parallel to OTL Quebec, but they all have elements of that special relationship in their provincial relation with the Dominion.
 
Well give that the DSA comprises the bulk of OTL's Southern US, it's not really that surprising that a sense of local identity would be preserved there, Imperial subjects or not. And I would imagine that (like "Richport") much of the Caribbean would experience a heavier Anglophone identity in terms of language, seeing as how the area's largely been part of the British realm for such a good amount of time. And as far as Albion and New Mexico goes, something tells me they'd see much stronger East Indian and SW Native (respectively) influence on their identity, on top of their Hispanic populations.

On a separate note (and I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record), but has there been an OOB drawn up for the DSA or USA military in this timeline? If not, perhaps I can work on one if you'd want?
 
Glen

Good to see this reviving:D, although that does mean I need to remember what was going on.:eek: Will be interesting to see whether Texas and possible the DSA as a whole avoids the Dutch illness. Possibly could be clashes between the oil rich areas and the rest over the sharing of resources, that could prompt some tension. In fact to some degree that is pretty much certain.

Steve
 
Well give that the DSA comprises the bulk of OTL's Southern US, it's not really that surprising that a sense of local identity would be preserved there, Imperial subjects or not. And I would imagine that (like "Richport") much of the Caribbean would experience a heavier Anglophone identity in terms of language, seeing as how the area's largely been part of the British realm for such a good amount of time. And as far as Albion and New Mexico goes, something tells me they'd see much stronger East Indian and SW Native (respectively) influence on their identity, on top of their Hispanic populations.

On a separate note (and I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record), but has there been an OOB drawn up for the DSA or USA military in this timeline? If not, perhaps I can work on one if you'd want?

East Indian, maybe.....not so sure about the SW Native part, though; might depend on government policy and how social culture evolves....Glen, would you care to try to elaborate on that? :cool:
 

Glen

Moderator
Well give that the DSA comprises the bulk of OTL's Southern US, it's not really that surprising that a sense of local identity would be preserved there, Imperial subjects or not.

Indeed, indeed.

And I would imagine that (like "Richport") much of the Caribbean would experience a heavier Anglophone identity in terms of language, seeing as how the area's largely been part of the British realm for such a good amount of time.

Yes, that is so. The only two exceptions to this are the big islands, Hispaniola and Cuba, which manage to prevent from being completely anglocized.

And as far as Albion and New Mexico goes, something tells me they'd see much stronger East Indian and SW Native (respectively) influence on their identity, on top of their Hispanic populations.

This is true.

On a separate note (and I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record), but has there been an OOB drawn up for the DSA or USA military in this timeline? If not, perhaps I can work on one if you'd want?

I do not have a specific order of battle drawn up. I would be most flattered if you did.
 

Glen

Moderator
Glen

Good to see this reviving:D, although that does mean I need to remember what was going on.:eek:

Yes, that is so. But then again, a glance at the DSA Finished Timelines and Scenarios threads can help refresh the memory.

Will be interesting to see whether Texas and possible the DSA as a whole avoids the Dutch illness. Possibly could be clashes between the oil rich areas and the rest over the sharing of resources, that could prompt some tension. In fact to some degree that is pretty much certain.

Steve

Oh, there will be some, but then again there is always tension in the Dominion between provinces. However, if you think about it, Albion, Texas, Arkansas, and Louisiana will all be early beneficiaries - now then, what will be interesting to see is what happens once off shore drilling becomes practical...
 

Glen

Moderator
East Indian, maybe.....not so sure about the SW Native part, though; might depend on government policy and how social culture evolves....Glen, would you care to try to elaborate on that? :cool:

The American Aboriginals in the SW do fare better than OTL, though not nearly as well as the Civilized Tribes in the SE.
 
One other thing to think of in regards to petroleum development - around the turn of the century, there was discovered a way to turn coal to oil - since the USA had ample oil on its own, the technology was for the most part ignored. With the biggest American oil deposits from OTL in the DSA, maybe this would be more persued, especially since the USA ITTL has even more coal.
 
SNIP...
I do not have a specific order of battle drawn up. I would be most flattered if you did.

In that case, if it's not too much trouble I would like a rough estimate of population by province (to figure out which ones will statistically produce more units and/or manpower) and a summary of the most politically vital cities within the DSA for similar reasons.

Essentially, I imagine the layout will resemble that of OTL's Canada, with allowances made for different provincial titles and "specialty" titles for battalions and regiments (special attention paid to Tribal outfits in Indiana, pre-existing Texan units, etc.). Furthermore, we'd likely see a relatively cavalry and horse-artillery heavy army due to the South's tradition of military horsemanship (this is true of OTL, and honestly I don't see that changing in TTL) and emphasis on mobility and flexibility to make up for the lack of relative industry/numbers. Lastly, guerrilla/irregular warfare will probably be taken seriously due to similar experiences during the Slaver Rebellion and the Battle of San Antonio, wherein the value of raiding the enemy's rear lines and fighting last-ditch holding actions was demonstrated.

Of course, there won't be a separate navy until later in the 20th. century (assuming a similar "Commonwealth"-type environment arises), with the Royal Navy providing seaborne combat ability for the DSA. What do you think?
 
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