Dominion of Southern America - Updated November 29, 2017

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Glen, Feb 22, 2010.

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  1. Splatter123 VMI forth classman

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    very interesting can't wait to see the way America looks like after the war, maybe they get more of Canada rather than Ohio and the territory east of the Mississippi
     
  2. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Glad I've caught your interest. Yes, the Treaty of Paris should only be one or two updates away.
     
  3. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    The war in the Caribbean was mostly one of raids, usually unsuccessful or poorly sustained, such that much of the Caribbean would return to the same hands at the end of the war.

    [​IMG]

    While the war did widen to include the Netherlands in what some call the Fourth Anglo-Dutch War and spread to include clashes in the East Indies sparking the Second Anglo-Mysore War, this had little impact on the main event on the American Continent.

    Cornwallis in the meantime conveyed an offer to the Continental Congress to recognize the United States of America in return for their renunciation of their alliance with France, which was rejected.
     
  4. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    In the closing year of the war, French raiders issued the death knell to the venerable Hudson Bay Company's monopoly on Prince Rupert's Land with their destruction of York Factory, cutting off the last outlet of the Company to their fur trade as Quebec was in rebel hands. The burgeoning Northwest Company would see to the completion of the work started by the French navy.

    [​IMG]
    Rupert's Land and York Factory
     
  5. Beedok I exist.

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    Good work, keep it up.
     
  6. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Thanks! And keep up the support!:D
     
  7. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    While a less than smooth process, the Peace of Paris saw separate treaties for the combatants in the war against Britain.

    The Treaty with the new United States of America included:
    1. Acknowledging the Twelve Colonies to be free, sovereign and independent States, and that the British Crown and all heirs and successors relinquish claims to the Government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same, and every part thereof;
    2. Establishing the boundaries between the United States and British North America at latitude 36-30;
    3. Granting fishing rights to British fishermen in the Grand Banks, off the coast of Newfoundland and in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence;
    4. Granting fur trapping rights to the Hudson Bay Company in Prince Rupert's Land until the time of renewal of their charter, with Americans to have equal access to Prince Rupert's Land from this time forward;
    5. Recognizing the lawful contracted debts to be paid to creditors on either side;
    6. The Congress of the Confederation will "earnestly recommend" to state legislatures to recognize the rightful owners of all confiscated lands "provide for the restitution of all estates, rights, and properties, which have been confiscated belonging to real British subjects [Loyalists]";
    7. United States will prevent future confiscations of the property of Loyalists;
    8. Prisoners of war on both sides are to be released and all property left by the British army in the United States unmolested (including slaves);
    9. Great Britain and the United States were each to be given perpetual access to the Mississippi River;
    10. Territories captured by Americans subsequent to treaty will be returned without compensation;
    11. Ratification of the treaty was to occur within six months from the signing by the contracting parties.

    [​IMG]
    Treaty of Paris

    The Treaty of France included:
    1. Declaration of peace, and forgetfulness of past problems.
    2. Confirmation of old treaties between the two nations.
    3. Exchange of prisoners and hostages to take place within 6 weeks of ratification; also ships (naval and merchant) captured after hostilities at sea officially cease are to be returned
    4. French crown to retain St. Pierre & Miquelon.
    5. French crown continues fishing rights between Cape Bonavista and Cape St. John (on the east coast of Newfoundland) and between Cape St. John and Cape Raye (round the west coast of Newfoundland).
    6. The French may still fish in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.
    7. In the West Indies, British crown returns St. Lucia to France subject to guarantees of the rights of British settlers.
    8. French crown returns Grenada, St. Vincent, Dominica, St. Christopher's (St. Kitts), Nevis and Montserrat to Britain, subject to guarantees of the right of French settlers in any of those islands.
    9. In Africa, British crown surrenders the Senegal river area to France, and returns to France the island of Gorée.
    10. French crown guarantees to British crown possession of the Gambia river area and Fort James.
    11. British shall have right to carry on the gum trade from the mouth of the River St. John to Portendic Bay, but may not establish permanent settlements there (boundaries of the various African possessions to be determined by commissioners to be chosen within 3 months of ratification).
    12. British and French access to other parts of the African coast to continue as customary.
    13. In India, British crown returns to France all settlements on the Orixa coast and in Bengal, as at the beginning of the war— with liberty for the French to make a ditch round Chandernagore (for drainage)— and will as far as possible provide security for French trade in the area.
    14. British crown also delivers Pondicherry and Karikal to France, with additions to the former at Valanour and Bahour; to the latter at the Magans.
    15. Mahé and the factory at Surat also returned to French control, with security provisions as in Article 13.
    16. Britain and France will cease to aid their respective Indian allies against each other within four months (ceasefire orders having already been sent to British and French forces in India).
    17. British crown abandons restrictions on French use of the port of Dunkirk in France.
    18. The two crowns will make new commercial agreements by the end of 1786.
    19. All territories conquered by either side since the war began, and not mentioned above, are to be returned to their pre-war owners.
    20. The two nations should be able to enter into their respective possessions of St. Pierre & Miquelon, St. Lucia, Gorée, Grenada, the Grenadines, St. Vincent, Dominica, St. Christopher, Nevis & Montserrat, within three months of ratification of the treaty. For Indian towns etc., within 6 months.
    21. to 24. Technical details.

    The Treaty with Spain included:
    1. Declaration of peace, and forgetfulness of past problems.
    2. Confirmation of old treaties between the two nations.
    3. Exchange of prisoners and hostages to take place within 6 weeks of ratification; also ships (naval and merchant) captured after hostilities at sea officially cease are to be returned.
    4. British crown surrenders Minorca to Spain.
    5. In "the Spanish continent" [the majority of America south of the United States] British subjects will be permitted to cut and carry away logwood in the district between the Bellize (or Wallis) river and the Rio Hondo (both of which shall be open to navigators from both nations) up to an isthmus formed by a widening of the Bellize river and a widening of the Rio Nuevo (New River), from where the boundary goes straight across the isthmus to the Rio Nuevo, along the Rio Nuevo to where it comes opposite a river [marked on an accompanying map] which flows into the Rio Hondo; then across to that river, downstream to the Rio Hondo, and finally down the Rio Hondo to the sea. Commissioners will mark out places where the British may establish settlements, and all British subjects within the Spanish continent and offshore islands will move to those settlements within 18 months from ratification (with full assistance from the Spanish authorities). No fortifications may be made within this area, and any now existing must be demolished. The British settlers may also fish for their subsistence off the coast of the designated area, and neighbouring islands (but must not make any other use of the said islands).
    6. All territories conquered by either side since the war began, and not mentioned above, are to be returned to their pre-war owners.
    7. The two crowns will make new commercial agreements by the end of 1786.
    8. to 10. Technical details.

    The Treaty with the Dutch Republic included:
    1. Declaration of peace, and forgetfulness of past problems
    2. Respect for each other's flags at sea to be resumed
    3. Exchange of prisoners and hostages to take place as soon as possible, without waiting for ratification; also ships (naval and merchant) captured after hostilities at sea officially cease are to be returned
    4. In India, the States General of the Republic surrender the town of Negapatnam to the British crown, but may exchange it for some equivalent property if they have such available
    5. British crown returns Trinquemale (Trincomalee) to the States General, with all other Dutch towns, forts, harbours and settlements conquered by the British forces (including East India Company forces) during the war
    6. The States General promise not to obstruct the navigation of British subjects in the Eastern Seas
    7. Commissioners shall be appointed to discuss navigation rights on the African coast, and the subject of Cape Apollonia [in what is now Ghana], which have been the source of disputes between the English African Company and the Dutch West India Company
    8. All territories conquered by either side since the war began, and not mentioned above, are to be returned to their pre-war owners
    9. to 11. Technical details
     
  8. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

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    Interesting treaties. I imagine that the British had to have received a pretty good counter-offer to surrender this one point, however. After all, they did see fit to execute an Admiral for "not trying hard enough" to defend it only 20 years earlier. It was pretty important to them.

    Enjoying it though. Will be interesting to see how the Americans set themselves up with a completely different British colony to range against.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2010
  9. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    That was actually part of the OTL treaty. And I believe there was a court martial over the loss.

    Glad to hear you are enjoying it.

    Agreed. What in particular were you pondering, though?
     
  10. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

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    Quite possibly. Perhaps an interesting little thing where Parliament (almost) rejects ratifying this treaty? But if you say it was IRL then it's all good. Perhaps Britain will keep it after all ;)

    Oh, a number of things, mainly obvious and largely what has already been mentioned I guess. Will there be a War of 1812? How will the slavery issue play out? Will there be a Federalist Party which dissents against anti-British measures? Will politics be friendlier or more hostile? Will either country cut off the other's access to the Pacific in time? How will relations with the Indians shape? I could go on :D
     
  11. othyrsyde Sana ka'aha yo pendejos!

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    Maybe it was the manner of his death, it was kinda brutal (especially what happened after). Thinking back on it, it might have to do with all the research I did to pick an appropriate British general, for the events that lead up to his death (long story though).

    Anyways, I'm enjoying this; and you gave me some ideas on what to do with Rupert's Land in my own TL.

    I might have overlooked this, but did the Anglo-Mysore war go more or less the same?
     
  12. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Yep, James Murray was court-martialled as part of the aftermath of the Siege of Minorca.

    Actually, that too is almost OTL as the British Parliament voted twice against the Treaty and the government toppled.

    Time will tell.

    What do you think?

    Differently in some ways, parallel in others.

    Yes.

    Within a country or between countries?

    Time will tell.

    Ah yes, now that should be quite interesting.

    Feel free to do so, I find your questions fascinating.
     
  13. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Yeah, I can see how that might make something stick out in the mind....

    We are gratified, citizen.:)

    Great! Mimickery is the sincerest form of flattery.:D

    Yes, outcome was the same.
     
  14. Beedok I exist.

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    I like the pictures, but it seems like they'll get harder to do as time goes on.
     
  15. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    True....but I have a cunning plan, m'lord....:eek:
     
  16. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    1783 populations, a DSA to OTL comparison:

    • Newfoundland - US territory, less population due to no Loyalists relocating there. Mostly Irish descent.
    • Quebec - US state, less population due to no Loyalists relocating there and some moving away. Mostly French descent.
    • Nova Scotia (includes OTL Cape Breton, Prince Edward Island, and New Brunswick) - US state, less population (especially where New Brunswick would have been OTL) due to no Loyalists relocating there and some moving away. Mostly Yankee descended with some French descended.
    • New England - US states, population about the same as OTL.
    • Mid-Atlantic States - US states, population slightly more due to more Patriots relocating from the Southern colonies than Loyalists moving away.
    • Virginia - US state, while part of the Mid-Atlantic States, population even more increased by influx of Patriots relocating there from the Southern colonies though some Loyalists move away as well.
    • North Carolina - British province, population shifts as many Loyalists from Mid-Atlantic and even New England move in, though offset some by Patriots leaving.
    • South Carolina - British province, shifting population as Loyalists from Mid-Atlantic and some New England, but loses many Patriots as well.
    • Bermuda - British island, as an important link to the still Loyalist British South fared much better than OTL, being able to receive food from the Carolinas, and some better Royal Navy protection (IOTL Bermudans were in terrible condition and many starved or nearly so). Overall population stays like prewar population.
    • Georgia - British province, relatively quiet compared to OTL. Had fewer Patriots to lose than OTL, received a few more Loyalists, so net gain in population for Georgia.
    • East Florida - British province, doesn't have British population flee, significant gain in population compared to OTL.
    • Bahamas - British islands, don't receive influx of Southern Loyalists like OTL, significantly less population than OTL.
    • West Florida (OTL western Florida, southern Alabama, southern Mississippi, eastern Louisiana) - British province, British population doesn't flee, significant gain in population compared to OTL.
    • Jamaica - British island, less Loyalist received, slightly less population compared to OTL.
    • Tobago - British island, British pre-war population remains.
    • United Kingdom - Slightly more Loyalists compared to OTL due to lack of Canada as a place to go for more northerly Loyalists.
     
  17. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    A map of the world at the end of 1783 after the American Revolutionary War:

    DSA 1783.PNG
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2010
    Youngmarshall likes this.
  18. Julius Vogel A rascal's rascal

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    Very professional looking time line so far and very easy to read.

    Have you given any thought as to whether or not the First Fleet will be sent to Australia as per OTL? IIRC that went out in 1788
     
  19. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Thank you. I am certainly trying.

    I had not until you asked. It's a good question. I think that is likely to happen more or less as in OTL. The alternative would be to continue transport to the still Loyal Southern colonies. But we must ask, why didn't the British do this with Canada and the Maritimes, then? At least one source cited fear that with the United States nearby the prisoners would be less controllable (escape to the US, start revolt, who knows?), and I think that is a reasonable thought. Also, would most of the Southern provinces want convicts? Perhaps not, and since they just fought a war to keep them the British might not want to rock the boat. The one place in the Southern colonies I could imagine sending convicts would be the South of Florida, which was considered a swamp back then (which it is not, the Everglades are a unique ecosystem nothing like a swamp<grin>).

    So, most likely First Fleet goes forth to New South Wales in this timeline as well.
     
  20. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Thread has hit a thousand views. Thanks, loyal readers!