Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

Glen

Glen

Moderator
teg said:
Just because the Chuen is conservative does not mean it will not be able to reform, it will just adopt western practises with a Chinese face.
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Another distinct possibility - just look at Meiji Japan in OTL - though they did have to change some social conventions there as I recall....but modernization does not always mean westernization, I agree.

I do however agree that in the long run the Chuen are vulnerable and if and when they are annexed by the UCS, then Manchuria will be vulnerable as well.
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Both fair points - though the Manchus in Manchuria have more to fear from Russian annexation for the immediate future, but that can change as well.

What does Manchuria call itself BTW; the Empire of Manchuria or Kingdom of Manchuria or does it still refuse to recognise it has lost so much territory (eg, the Qing still call themselves the Emperors of China)?
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Basically it still refers to itself as Qing China officially, but unofficially almost everyone is already calling it Manchuria.

jycee said:
What I meant to say is that the conservatism will likely lead to them being isolationist
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A distinct political possibility, and a definite policy in the short term, at least politically - in terms of modernization, we shall see....

and would likely get a response from their non Confusian minorities not necessarily that it can not reform (though it will likely be a violent change).
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Huh, lost me here - can you expand and clarify?

Something tells me that Manchuria is likely to be divided at some point between Russia, Chuen China (or a unified China) and Japan (if it gets off the funk its in right now) or Korea, which without Japan and China preassuring it can grow into a local power.
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Or annexed entirely by one of those - yes, either is a VERY real possibility - or Manchuria could choose to join someone voluntarily, or it could even finally develop some diplomatic instincts and play opposing powers off each other to retain some independence. Let us say that the Manchu live in interesting times....:eek:
 
Glen

Glen

Moderator
thekingsguard said:
I love the end of the Chinese Civil War!
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Again, thank you!

I gotta admit, I would have prefered to see the USC call themselves the United States of Asia. Leaves open all sorts of options and jokes in the future ;-).
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DrTron said:
Glen, please do this! It is not too late!
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True, but there already is a USA ITTL, so I don't think it prudent for there to be another (sorry guys!). Of course, in future, who knows?;)

thekingsguard said:
Regardless, looks to me like the USA and USC will have a very different sort of special relationship in this world! A world where Cantonese is still spoken in China!
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Both very true points.

And the Chuen Dynasty looks like it will have a rocky foundation, with a very diverse ethnic base, with the Tibetens, Mongolians and Turkistanis making up a good chunk of the people, and thier homelands make up the the majority of the landmass!
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Ah, but other nations have had as much, and survived and prospered - and some with more secure foundations have come crashing down. Basically we will simply have to see which way this Chuen China goes.

And Russia has a fine puppet in Manchuria, though I wonder when they will decide to make it thier own. Siberia will eventually need a Vladvistok after all!
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And that is a very good question, isn't it?

In the end, you continue to suprise us with this world Glen. Bravo!
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I am glad I am being both convincing and not too obvious at the same time. Thank you for your accolades!
 
Glen

Glen

Moderator
Falastur said:
Not necessarily. Those strengths may be its undoing. The USC is now weaker that China OTL (in that it is smaller and, under a new regime, is inevitably more unstable) and it possesses what the European countries want: control of the Yangtse, plus other coastal cities.
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These are all valid points - on the other hand, they've unloaded a lot of baggage and have some hope for the first time in a long time. Could go either way - I said it for the Manchus, but I will also say it for the Southern Chinese - they live in interesting times...;)

If the UK, or another country, decides to attempt to establish a sphere of influence over the Chinese trade lanes, the war may swing the balance of power amongst the three remnant Chinese states decidedly against them...
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Yep, this is the downside.
 
Glen

Glen

Moderator
And we are now the thread with the fourth largest number of replies in the Before 1900 section - thank you one and all for your supportive and thoughtful comments!
 

eschaton

Looking at what the Cheun dynasty is left with, there is no way they could hold onto Tibet. The best/easiest way into Tibet is through the narrow river valleys in the East, which are accessible though what is now the USC. Consider that even today, there are only three highways that offer access to Tibet from the north (the same number come from the east, but it's a much smaller land border). In addition, Western Tibet is pretty much a wasteland, which means the Cheun have terrible supply lines if they try to hold onto it.

I don't think the USC would want it much either however. Indeed, I think the most likely happenstance is it breaks away entirely, and perhaps becomes a British protectorate.
 
Glen

Glen

Moderator
eschaton said:
Looking at what the Cheun dynasty is left with, there is no way they could hold onto Tibet. The best/easiest way into Tibet is through the narrow river valleys in the East, which are accessible though what is now the USC. Consider that even today, there are only three highways that offer access to Tibet from the north (the same number come from the east, but it's a much smaller land border). In addition, Western Tibet is pretty much a wasteland, which means the Cheun have terrible supply lines if they try to hold onto it.
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At this point, neither are giving much thought to Tibet.

I don't think the USC would want it much either however. Indeed, I think the most likely happenstance is it breaks away entirely, and perhaps becomes a British protectorate.
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All possible, depending on how other events unfold.
 

teg

Glen said:
Again, something that only time will tell for certain, but what were you thinking with regards to this comment.
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Basically North China has a smaller coastline, has more territory which will be difficult to develop (lots of desert and mountains that are not balanced by a lot of good farmland) and it is also much closer to Russia than the USC.
 
Glen

Glen

Moderator
teg said:
Basically North China has a smaller coastline,
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True, but that also makes it less coastline to defend.

has more territory which will be difficult to develop (lots of desert and mountains that are not balanced by a lot of good farmland)
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True, but then again they probably have enough for their population IF they develop it wisely - no guarantee there.

and it is also much closer to Russia than the USC.
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Ah, now there indeed is the rub - so far from God, so close to Russia...;)
 
Glen

Glen

Moderator
For the Qing Dynasty, the only bright spot of 1860s was that they managed to hold onto the loyalty of the Manchu people. The death of the previous Emperor and several of the more useless members of the Imperial Court in the Fall of Peking probably helped this process, allowing a more pragmatic and capable branch of the Qing to ascend to the throne. However, the Qing in Manchuria still had to deal with the Russians to the north, and they were in a very perilous position. Essentially, to retain their territorial integrity, the Qing had to become an economic and military satellite of the Russian Empire, agreeing to favorable trade agreements for the Russians and allowing them treaty ports on the Amur and the Pacific. The most important of these would be the southern port of Haishenwai, finally providing the Russians with a warm water (relatively speaking) port on the Pacific.

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Glen

Glen

Moderator
The flag of the United States of China was clearly inspired by that of the United States of America. It borrowed the idea of alternating stripes, but with thirteen, to represent the thirteen provinces of the revolution, rather than the USA's twelve representing the twelve colonies of the American Revolution. It was felt by the flag's designers that the prime number of stripes would better work with a simple alternating pattern of two colors, and they chose the red and white, according to some as representing the Han and related peoples (red) and Hui (white), omitting blue. Vexollogists will note the strong similarity to the flag of the British East India Company. However, the blue canton was retained as in the American flag, but instead of individual stars, the Chinese opted for one thirteen pointed star or sun, depending on which source is referenced.

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thekingsguard

And the long road to Russian ownership of Manchuria begins!

In light of that flag, you just HAVE to call it the United States of Asia now!
 
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