Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Glen, Feb 22, 2010.

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  1. My Username is Inigo Montoya Virile Member

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    Glen
    I've got a handful questions for you:
    - From I've seen on the world maps, there's no Grand-Duchy of Luxembourg. If the Belgian have "gotten away with" Luxembourg, do they also keep Flemish Zealand? The whole of Limburg? Are there any other territorial changes we should know about?
    - An instalment about the domestic situation there would be extremely nice:D:D:D.
    - Will there be an analog to OTL severed hands scandal in Ceylon? please... please... the bloodier the best! :D
    - What is the current level of political freedom in the Empire of France?

    Once again, thanks for your fantastic level of investment in this. You really rock!
     
  2. Arachnid Arachnid once more.

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    I was doing some more thinking about the DSA's Demographics in 1850.
    Essentially it can be divided into three. The Caribbean (including Puerto Rico) was 70% Black in OTL and has a population around 700,000. The West is essentially empty as far as settled people who acknowledge the authority of the DSA are concerned.That leaves the "South" or really the East, as as far as the DSA is concerned the Caribbean islands are its South. In 1850 in *OTL the population of the entire South was around 8 million with around 3.2 million slaves and an estimated 250,000 Indians. That means a total for the *DSA in OTL of 9 million adding in 300,000 American Indians in the West.
    Now we can assume that the Caribbean is essentially the same with Puerto Rico added and that the Black population in the East is roughly similar to OTL. However the big question is White immigration and Indian survival. Sad as it is the American Indian population was falling as famine and war destroyed the tribes. Here that is not true, or at least not as true. This is obviously going to have an effect. The other addition is the "East" Indian immigration. While Glen hasn't given details I doubt it would be more than 200,000 or so, if only due to cost and most would be heading for the empty West rather than the fuller East.
    Now lets say that additional immigration pushes the White population from 4.7 million in OTL to 5.5 million (17% more) and less genocide means the American Indian population stays static at 600,000 between 1830 and 1850 rather than dropping as growth among the Civilised tribes cancels out deaths among the uncivilised. Add in 250,000 East Indians (natural increase) and 3.65 million Blacks we have a total of 10 million for the DSA in 1850. All these figures are just my guesses, its your sandbox.
    This means there are going to be major regional differences with a Majority Black Caribbean, narrow white majority South-East, a North East (i.e. the border provinces that Glen mentioned) that is in order American Indian/White/Black and a White/American Indian/East Indian/Black West. This is because I guess that the majority of settlers will be White either straight from Europe or from the East adding to the local Indians and "East" Indians brought in for the railways, Black migration West will be held down by poverty and discrimination. This regional difference is obviously going to bring a lot of diversity but also political tension with more regional identification than in the more homogeneous USA.

    On another issue you mentioned that all who fought for the Loyalists have been given the vote and their children. Can you explain why? In Britain at this time the vote wasn't given to veterans and the vote wasn't hereditary, you could be kicked off the electoral roll if you lost you money. So why this very unusual provision?
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
  3. eschaton Muckraker & Rabblerouser

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    South Tyrol was always majority German anyway - Italy only took it following World War I because it was strategically important (allowed the whole alpine water divide to be on their side of the border). Provided relationships stay civil between Germany and Italy, I doubt Italy will care.

    Somewhere in Africa? I can't see South Africa accepting them with open arms.

    I see what you're getting at, but Canada had a rather limited carrying capacity and attraction compared to the U.S. The DSA undoubtedly has a bit more pull as it were. Still, your point stands that there will still be British people migrating to the USA (potentially not just in Britain, but also in the DSA), and these are who the UK is going to want to sweeten the pie for.

    No, but I think overall economic opportunity there will be a fair bit more equal. Just about any free British migrant, even if they are black, probably stand a chance of getting into the middle class, particularly in the earlier days of settlement. And once an established black middle class is formed it opens more opportunities for later migrants. Basically, I'd expect segregation to be almost as bad as the DSA, but inequality to be a fair bit better.

    I figure that ITTL roughly 30% of the population of Australia will be Southron in ancestry. This may sound like a lot, but by 1850 the DSA probably has a population a little over half the size of the Home Islands. 5% means roughly one out of six will be black, which sounds about right to me - far smaller than their share of the DSA's population, but pretty well reflective of the economic and social disadvantages they face at home. To give some modern day comparisons, this means a black population about as visible as in modern-day Massachusetts, Wisconsin, or Minnesota, although hopefully more integrated and less corralled into a few urban areas.
     
  4. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    I shall endeavor to answer them, then!

    Yes, the Belgians get away with it. :D

    No, not Zealand.

    The Belgians keep more of Limburg, basically that peninsula of OTL Netherlands south of where the rivers Meuse and Rur (not to be confused with Ruhr) meet. So Maastrict is Belgian.

    Other than Belgian Ceylon, none that I can think of off the top of my head.

    And what type of details would you be looking for in such an update?

    Not familiar with that one from that name, can you give a link to a description of the OTL event?

    Pretty good. The elderly king is beloved by his people, secure in his throne, and idolized Napoleon as a boy, so he has allowed a flowering of political freedom in the Kingdom (also influenced by close ties to the USA).

    Very kind of you to say!
     
  5. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Indeed.
    In other words, filled with 'wild' Indians.
    So some more Indians and Blacks than OTL.
    Well, there's been some significant immigration to Richport (OTL Puerto Rico) of Loyalists and other British. Not a majority, but they're a power in the land as it were.
    Slightly higher at the time of the Slaver Uprising - then between 1840 and 1865 it will grow less than OTL did in the same period. After that probably will grow slightly less than OTL as well, but not as dramatic of a difference.
    The Civilized Tribe population will definitely be higher without the Trail of Tears. The 'East Indian' Population will grow in the West, but you are wrong about the East not having substantial numbers come there as they are in fact being brought in to plantations to work, as well as in the Caribbean.
    Probably go a bit higher with the East Indians (though maybe not - it is still early days) and higher with the Blacks a bit.
    True there will be different distributions, though you underestimate black immigration to the West, which will in fact be substantial as poverty will drive more west than keep them east, and the flavor of discrimination in the DSA will actually tend to 'encourage' ungainfully employed blacks to leave the civilized provinces, and the territories the closest place for someone to go to (besides America, of course, but they will do some counter-persuading of anyone who doesn't find work fast). So blacks of the east will migrate towards west and secondarily northwest. It won't be a tidal wave, but a steady tributary of the streams of settlers heading West.
    The Loyalists and British wanted to ensure that the government of the DSA would stay staunchly loyal to the British Empire, and so they made certain that Loyalists and their families could not be disenfranchised (including blacks in this case, which was actually a compromise, by promising that Loyalist blacks would be 'special' cases with regard to suffrage, it made the laws that would disenfranchise so many others of the blacks of the DSA more 'palatable' to the Loyalist whites who felt a loyalty to their dark-skinned comrades in arms). I did hesitate on making it hereditary, but in the end I think they went this extra step in the DSA - the family of a man who fought for the Empire can only be disenfranchised should he, or one of his descendants, take up arms against the British Empire.
     
  6. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Noted.
    Maybe - and I agree that South Africa won't take black convicts.
    Maybe, but probably not by that much.
    I would think the same could be said for the DSA western regions.
    I would guess that at 5% of the population, segregation (at least physically, not talking socially) will be unlikely - just aren't enough of them to justify the effort! The 30% seems a bit high, yeah, but maybe as high as 20%?
     
  7. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    The greatest technological race of 19th century North America had some distinct ethnic associations to its various theaters of operation.
    [​IMG]
    Dominion efforts in the Great Transcontinental Railroad Race, though split between the government supported efforts in the north of the DSA and the private route in the south of the DSA, would all start from both ends of the continent and slowly work its way to the interior. In the east, much of the workforce was comprised of free blacks, but there was a large need for workers in the far west, so the railroads did as the planters were now doing and brought in indentured labor from the subcontinent.
    [​IMG]
    American efforts in the Great Transcontinental Railroad Race focused on a single route until the West, where the route would follow a northern and southern path to address the needs of the populations of Oregon and California. The railroad started to grow from both the East heading West, and from the West heading north, much as the Dominion was doing.
    [​IMG]
    Along the frontier of the Eastern half of the United States, the effort would become associated with the Irish, who comprised the majority of the laborers. In the west, workers were even harder to come by, and so the American railroad companies took a page out of the British Empire's playbook and brought in indentured servants, but not from India. Instead, they would turn to China as a source of workers and thus the first major influx of Chinese would arrive in the American West.
    [​IMG]
    Who would make the first transcontinental connection was a question of much debate over time, until the race was in fact won.
     
  8. Earl_of_Somerset Banned

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    The suspense builds....

    Who will win the race?

    A Last minute entry by Panama :D
     
  9. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Isthmus entries don't count - they're not transcontinental.;)
     
  10. thekingsguard Founder of Korsgaardianism

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    If I may vocalize my support in the race...

    USA!
    USA!
    USA!
    USA!
    USA!

    Sorry, had to get it out of my system...
     
  11. Leistungsfähiger Amerikan Angry American with Guns

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    How are you going to decide who wins? A) Legitimate a-historical reasons B) Prejudices (USA! USA! USA!) C) Roll of a dice?
     
  12. IchBinDieKaiser Casual Historian

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    Decide democratically. Open a poll!
     
  13. My Username is Inigo Montoya Virile Member

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    Thankee!

    Oh, who's prime minister, what are the different political parties (if any), that kind of things...
    if you already have some ideas, that is. (otherwise you might want to do some research, as Belgium has often been a precursor of many Europe-wide phenomena, e.g. concerning industrialisation).

    Here you are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Free_State#Severed_hands
    That's what earned Leopold II the sweet nickname of "bloody rubber merchant". The uproar was especially strong in the UK.
     
  14. Arachnid Arachnid once more.

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    I think its safe to say that by it gets to the opening up of the Congo that the butterflies will have been so extensive that the Congo Free State as it was in OTL won't happen, though that isn't necessarily a good thing!.
     
  15. My Username is Inigo Montoya Virile Member

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    Sure it won't. Neither will Leopold II even exist. My point was: will we see an analog to this in TTL Belgian Ceylon?
     
  16. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Dear viewers, we are still in the lead in this race, but we are only in the lead BY ONE VOTE!!! Please, if you have not already voted for the Dominion of Southern America in the Best Timeline Poll, do so ASAP! If you have already, thank you very much for your support!!!
     
  17. Earl_of_Somerset Banned

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    make that two votes ;)
     
  18. DuQuense Commisioned Officer CSN

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    ?Is there more Government supervision ITTL? OTL the east and Western Bound Rails raced pasteach other for about 10~12 miles.
    It took Grant sending a Messenger to the two Railroad Heads, explaining that the Land Titles ended at the meeting point, to get the two Railroads to agree on a meeting point.
     
  19. sudfamsci theoretical weapons specialist

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    i want to know more about the accents i know that you said earlier that they were the same but 1st which are the same, and till when? 2nd i can see the aristocracy staying as it was per arw but the addition of new emigrants will radically change thing for the poor. it would bring in new words and the Tenn. accent is gone replaced be native Americans what do they sound like? 3rd how is Cajun french faring in Louisiana? is it more or less french is it a hard or soft aristocratic like olt or more Parisian like modern french? 4th has central Carolina gotten its accent yet? or will it be butterflied way with out they massive move to Appalachia? 5th how is Spanish faring in the Caribbean? how is common is Spanglish and how is it different from the type in the US i know many otl Cubans can't talk very well to rural continental Latinos? 6th is the increase in Latinos going to flavor homeland speech i think it might help some of the English idea of language purity. it would help me spell if they accepted a phonetic alphabet:) for those less used to English we refuse to make different languages so we are filled to the brim with incomprehensible accents and dialects but they are all spelled the same, car in Jersey, car in Texas, car in Boston, car in London, car in India yet you wouldn't know that by listening:rolleyes:. sorry about the tie raid:eek: but that has always be a pain of mine but i would love to know some more detail on the accents:D also is Quebec altering the US's if so how:confused::D s'il vous plaît et merci
     
  20. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Thanks! Your support means much!