Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Glen, Feb 22, 2010.

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  1. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

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    Of course. I didn't mean to insinuate that what you're doing is bad - on the contrary, I'll go for anything which supports this TL. I just wanted to say that I have a feeling that Glen has put more than just this TL on hold, and that he may need some time before he's ready to return.
     
  2. Plumber Manifest Destiny inspired Lebensraum

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    Random act of bumpage. Anyways, good luck in whatever's going on Glen, I know that you'll return when you can.

    Some random maps:
    [​IMG]

    For randomness, I remember reading the rough draft of this timeline long ago (which itself branches into three different timelines) and recently rediscovered it:

    Southern America Act of 1774

    And to conclude, my own improved map:
    DominionofSouthernAmerica.png

    DominionofSouthernAmerica.png
     
  3. amirtaheri Well-Known Member

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    Mar 4, 2010
    Any chance of an update soon? It's been a long old while and I don't want this TL to die!

    Few questions, which may spawn more questions...

    - What is the status of China in TTL? Will it be headed toward a similar fat in the beginning of the 20th Century in OTL?

    - What is the status of the French Colony in Australia? How will this develop Anglo-French relations during the 19th Century?
     
  4. tjvuse Banned

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    10/10 for maps and time line

    I hope this time line will at least partly butterfly away and not speed up the the complete collapses of Imperial China.:D
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2010
  5. Plumber Manifest Destiny inspired Lebensraum

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    Well the only thing about China so far is on page 38 I think... nothing particularly different came to mind, but it's been a while and I'm not China expert.
     
  6. Tom Veil Nowhere Man

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    Well, the lack of references to China is understandable. It's hard enough to keep a TL under control when there's just one continent to focus on; try to chronicle the whole world and you're liable to bite off more than you can chew. With big TLs like this, it's safe to assume that a "river" approach is being used for the parts of the world that get little coverage -- unless the change in course is obvious, history is going to flow in the same general direction.
     
  7. Tom Veil Nowhere Man

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    Incidentally, I should take the time to post a couple more of my notes while I still remember this TL well. First, here's the rough 2010 population in OTL of the nations/regions described. In other words, this is what the modern-day population would be if this TL had no effects on immigration patterns and growth rates ... which, of course, is not the case. So think of this as an anchor while you try to figure out what the grand sweep of those changes would be.

    • USA: 205 million
    • DSA minus Caribbean: 130
    • Caribbean: 40 (The Caribbean islands seem to be trending towards being a Dominion separate from the DSA)
    • Mexico: 145
    • Brazil: 95
    • Ex-Brazilian breakaways: 95
    • Granada: 90
    • UPSA: 90

    I'm sure some of this is Glen's planning and some is serendipity, but I am very impressed at the parity and balance in the Alt-Americas. These are all nicely sized nations, and the possibility of one nation dominating another will depend far more on technology, economy, and culture than it will on sheer size.
     
  8. Eurofed Banned

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    As a matter of fact, IMO the political difficulties about merging the mainland DSA and the Caribbean islands seem merely temporary, lingering bad blood from the Slaver Rebellion that is bound to fade with time. The merger is in the best interest of Britain and the Dominions, and it would make the DSA better balanced against the USA and Mexico.
     
  9. EvilSpaceAlien Systeeeemkollaaaaps

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    I wonder if the butterflies from this timeline could find some way to have the Swedish-Norwegian union last.... That'd be sweet.
     
  10. Dathi THorfinnsson Daði Þorfinnsson

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    I don't know if this is covered later, but...

    BC had the same kind of anti-Asiatic fever that California did.
    And Australia's 'White Australia' policy is infamous.

    How can you say a British run California would be much more open to Asiatics?
     
  11. Dathi THorfinnsson Daði Þorfinnsson

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    Re: sports
    One reason that rugby is not very popular in Canada or the US is ... that it is (in a highly mutated form).

    What we call Football over here (gridiron/US football/whatever) is a direct evolution of rugby. The immediate ancestor is actually Canadian - there were some Ivy League universities playing the game, and they invited McGill down. They were so taken with McGill's version, they adopted it, and that's what evolved into modern US (and Canadian) football.

    My dad when I was growing up in the sixties insisted on calling 'Football' Rugby, as it wasn't 'football' (i.e. soccer). Of course, by then it had long since ceased being Rugby either, but then my dad is ... my dad.:)
     
  12. Julius Vogel So

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    In NZ rugby has long been referred to as "Rugby Football", or "football". Soccer has become more popular of late and is making a determined attempt to capture the label "football" for itself
     
  13. Nugax talks in diagrams

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    Yeah but whilst there isn't much reason for them to not merge, there is little reason for them to do so - the islands will still have to be secured by the Royal Navy and they'll thus want an independent voice in Westminister, and the Mainland BSA is going to want its military expediture to be small and focused towards the North and Mexico.

    Thus whilst it will almost certainly happen by the end of the 19th, it won't do so till BSA develops the industrial and commerical interests to make its independent hold over the Caribbean viable and Britain feels it has too much to do elsewhere and gives up some of the responsibility.

    A British controlled canal across the isthmus will slow this process due to the increased naval and commerical reliance of the whole Empire.
     
  14. thekingsguard Founder of Korsgaardianism

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    Being a proud Virginian, I am quite interested to see the effects of living in a border state will have on all parties involved.
     
  15. fero Banned

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    sorry, I take a look of this TL and look like a bristish/english wank

    quebec absorbed, british caribe, british india, british autralia, british patagonia, british south africa, and we are just in 1840, I think in 1900 british russia and American china or maybe Australian dominio of indonesia
     
  16. thekingsguard Founder of Korsgaardianism

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    ANy hope for an update someday?
     
  17. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Founding of the Dominion

    The final Conference on Southern Federation occured in 1844. There was renewed interest in the federation after Texas came out in favor of the plan, and the only major colony in North America and the Caribbean to opt out was Hispaniola.

    It was agreed to petition the Crown for the formation of a federation. Almost as hotly discussed as the points of federation was the proposed name for the federation. At first, many favored refering to the federation as a new Kingdom of Southern America under the British Crown, but it was quickly realized that this might antagonize the United States to their north as well as the British Parliament. Several descendants of United Empire Loyalists whose families originally hailed from Virginia (among them Generals Grymes and Randolph) countered with 'Dominion', calling the new federation the truly faithful 'Old Dominion' of America. And so the Dominion of Southern America was decided upon as the name for the federation.

    The previous points of agreement from the 1843 conference were reiterated, and a few other points were added. The final document produced is considered by historians to be the true beginning of a Southern Constitution. The points included:

    • Restoration of civil rights for rebels who swore allegiance to the crown.
    • Representatives from all provinces to the federal legislature would be elected.
    • The rights of Aboriginal Americans to vote in Indiana would be preserved, but whites in the province would also be enfranchised.
    • No landowner or renter would be denied the right to vote.
    • Catholics would be enfranchised and allowed to hold public office in provinces where they were a majority such as Louisiana, Cuba, and Richport.
    • The Territories of New Mexico and California would remain under the jurisdiction of Texas until such time as they were populous enough to become full provinces.
    • The Minor Antilles would be under Dominion jurisdiction.
    • The British Government to commit to a trans-continental railroad to connect the Pacific Coast of California with the Dominion.

    The final report was sent to the Crown and Parliament, and on June 20th, 1845, the Dominion of Southern America Act was passed and a new jewel was added to the British Crown.

    The Founding Fathers of the Federation (sometimes irreverently refered to as the 'Daddies of Dominion') in alphabetical order by Province and Name:

    Arkansas
    Henry Johnson Conway
    Thomas Rector Conway
    Thomas Drew
    John Hamilton Gray
    Edward Palmer
    Joseph Pope
    Archibald Yell

    Bahamas
    Francis Bickerton
    William Bucktrout
    Mackenzie Hubard
    Frank Jaram
    Drake Watson

    Bermuda
    Toby Jaram
    James Menzies
    Edward Robinson
    Michael Ross
    Thomas Tarpley

    Carleton
    Neill Brown
    James B. Campbell
    Newton Cannon
    Horatio Grymes
    William Andrew Johnson
    James Dean Jones
    James Randolph
    James Polk

    Cuba
    William Carter
    Carlos Cepedes
    Jose Heredia
    Andrew Hill
    Jonathan Jaram
    John Thompson
    Felix Varela

    East Florida
    James Anderson
    Joseph Gray II
    Thomas Heath Haviland Jr.
    Donald Henley
    George Mercer Johnson
    Charles Maitland
    James Middleton

    Georgia
    Edward Chandler
    Howell Cobb Jr.
    James Cockburn
    George Rockingham Gilmer
    Richard Gwatkin
    John Hardcastle
    George Wood

    Indiana
    David Evans
    Greenwood Le Fleur
    George Harkins
    John McGillivray
    William McIntosh III
    John Ridge
    John Ross
    Buck Watie

    Jamaica
    J. W. Gordon
    Ronald Hubard
    Thomas S. Hunter
    John Ritchie
    Thomas Tilley
    Joseph Williams

    Louisiana
    Paul Hebert
    Andre Roman
    Joseph Marshall Walker
    Daniel McDougall
    John Mowatt
    Floyd Pitt
    Samuel Levi Wells III

    North Carolina
    Edward Bishop Dudley
    William Holden
    John Howe Jr.
    Reuben Settle Reid
    Richard Dobbs Spaight, Jr.
    George David Swain
    Jonathan Worth
    Robert Brank Vance

    Richport
    Primo Belvis
    J. Philip Benjamin
    Phineas Bland
    James Carter
    Juan P. Duarte

    South Carolina
    Seth Allan
    Robert Brown
    Alexander George Campbell
    Benjamin Carey
    Harold Corbin
    Barnabas Drew Henegan
    George McDuffie

    Texas
    Moses Austin Jr.
    John Brown
    Sam Carson
    John Galt
    Isaac Brock Hamilton
    J. D. Henderson
    Hugh Macdonald

    West Florida
    Benjamin Fitzpatrick
    James Henderson
    Joseph Hunter Johnson
    Hugh Macdonald
    Bruce Miller
    George William Pitt
    William Sharkey

    1844 Federation Conference.png
     
  18. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    A lengthy list of links to the wikipedia pages used for finding the OTL families of many of the founding fathers of federation for the Dominion of Southern America, not fully in order.

    PS - The other names of founding fathers who aren't here without links came from a list of VA Loyalist families.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Howe John Howe Jr.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lowry_Swain George David Swain
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bishop_Dudley Edward Bishop Dudley
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dobbs_Spaight,_Jr. Richard Dobbs Spaight, Jr.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Woods_Holden William Holden
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Brank_Vance Robert Brank Vance
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Settle_Reid Reuben Settle Reid
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Worth Jonathan Worth
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnabas_Kelet_Henagan Barnabas Drew Henegan
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_McDuffie George McDuffie
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Brown_(Canadian_politician) Robert Brown
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Campbell_(Canadian_politician) Alexander George Campbell
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_C._Jones James Dean Jones
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neill_S._Brown Neill Brown
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_B._Campbell James B. Campbell
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_Cannon Newton Cannon
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_K._Polk James Polk
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Johnson William Andrew Johnson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Rockingham_Gilmer George Rockingham Gilmer
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howell_Cobb_(disambiguation) Howell Cobb Jr.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tyler_Wood George Wood
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Barron_Chandler Edward Chandler
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cockburn_(politician) James Cockburn
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Patton_Anderson James Anderson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hamilton_Gray_(New_Brunswick) Joseph Gray II
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Heath_Haviland Thomas Heath Haviland Jr.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mercer_Johnson George Mercer Johnson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Johnson Joseph Hunter Johnson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Fitzpatrick Benjamin Fitzpatrick
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_L._Sharkey William Sharkey
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Pinckney_Henderson James Henderson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Archibald_Macdonald Hugh Macdonald
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Marshall_Walker Joseph Marshall Walker
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Octave_Hebert Paul Hebert
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Madison_Wells Samuel Levi Wells III
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre_B._Roman Andre Roman
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McDougall_(politician) Daniel McDougall
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Mowat John Mowatt
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Sevier_Conway Thomas Rector Conway
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archibald_Yell Archibald Yell
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Stevenson_Drew Thomas Drew
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Wharton_Conway Henry Johnson Conway
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Palmer_(politician) Edward Palmer
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Pope_(politician) Joseph Pope
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hamilton_Gray_(Prince_Edward_Island) John Hamilton Gray
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_William_Gordon J. W. Gordon
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_William_Ritchie John Ritchie
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Leonard_Tilley Thomas Tilley
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Pablo_Duarte, Juan P. Duarte
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judah_Benjamin J. Philip Benjamin
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segundo_Ruiz_Belvis Primo Belvis
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/José_María_Heredia, Jose Heredia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Félix_Varela Felix Varela
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Manuel_de_Céspedes Carlos Cepedes
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Carter William Carter
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Harkins George Harkins
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwood_Leflore Greenwood Le Fleur
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opothleyahola David Evans
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ridge John Ridge
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ross_(Cherokee_chief) John Ross
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_Boudinot_(Cherokee) Buck Watie
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_McGillivray John McGillivray
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McIntosh William McIntosh III
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Price_Carson Sam Carson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._W._Henderson J. D. Henderson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_J._Hamilton Isaac Brock Hamilton
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Tilloch_Galt John Galt
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._Macdonald Hugh Macdonald
     
  19. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Rained off, in what sense?

    Don't know if it was here, but there is a good chance of that ITTL certainly....
     
  20. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Just one, just one - even a double header!

    Interesting - I wouldn't have thought of rugby as a game of the educated classes...

    Don't really know.

    Could be. In any event, we will see how sport evolves over time.