Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Glen, Feb 22, 2010.

  1. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

    Jan 16, 2009
    Hitchin, Herts
    Of course. I didn't mean to insinuate that what you're doing is bad - on the contrary, I'll go for anything which supports this TL. I just wanted to say that I have a feeling that Glen has put more than just this TL on hold, and that he may need some time before he's ready to return.
  2. Plumber Manifest Destiny inspired Lebensraum

    May 31, 2009
    Random act of bumpage. Anyways, good luck in whatever's going on Glen, I know that you'll return when you can.

    Some random maps:

    For randomness, I remember reading the rough draft of this timeline long ago (which itself branches into three different timelines) and recently rediscovered it:

    Southern America Act of 1774

    And to conclude, my own improved map:

  3. amirtaheri Well-Known Member

    Mar 4, 2010
    Any chance of an update soon? It's been a long old while and I don't want this TL to die!

    Few questions, which may spawn more questions...

    - What is the status of China in TTL? Will it be headed toward a similar fat in the beginning of the 20th Century in OTL?

    - What is the status of the French Colony in Australia? How will this develop Anglo-French relations during the 19th Century?
  4. tjvuse Banned

    Jul 17, 2010
    10/10 for maps and time line

    I hope this time line will at least partly butterfly away and not speed up the the complete collapses of Imperial China.:D
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2010
  5. Plumber Manifest Destiny inspired Lebensraum

    May 31, 2009
    Well the only thing about China so far is on page 38 I think... nothing particularly different came to mind, but it's been a while and I'm not China expert.
  6. Tom Veil Nowhere Man

    Feb 27, 2006
    Washington, D.C.
    Well, the lack of references to China is understandable. It's hard enough to keep a TL under control when there's just one continent to focus on; try to chronicle the whole world and you're liable to bite off more than you can chew. With big TLs like this, it's safe to assume that a "river" approach is being used for the parts of the world that get little coverage -- unless the change in course is obvious, history is going to flow in the same general direction.
  7. Tom Veil Nowhere Man

    Feb 27, 2006
    Washington, D.C.
    Incidentally, I should take the time to post a couple more of my notes while I still remember this TL well. First, here's the rough 2010 population in OTL of the nations/regions described. In other words, this is what the modern-day population would be if this TL had no effects on immigration patterns and growth rates ... which, of course, is not the case. So think of this as an anchor while you try to figure out what the grand sweep of those changes would be.

    • USA: 205 million
    • DSA minus Caribbean: 130
    • Caribbean: 40 (The Caribbean islands seem to be trending towards being a Dominion separate from the DSA)
    • Mexico: 145
    • Brazil: 95
    • Ex-Brazilian breakaways: 95
    • Granada: 90
    • UPSA: 90

    I'm sure some of this is Glen's planning and some is serendipity, but I am very impressed at the parity and balance in the Alt-Americas. These are all nicely sized nations, and the possibility of one nation dominating another will depend far more on technology, economy, and culture than it will on sheer size.
  8. Eurofed Banned

    Jun 29, 2009
    As a matter of fact, IMO the political difficulties about merging the mainland DSA and the Caribbean islands seem merely temporary, lingering bad blood from the Slaver Rebellion that is bound to fade with time. The merger is in the best interest of Britain and the Dominions, and it would make the DSA better balanced against the USA and Mexico.
  9. EvilSpaceAlien Systeeeemkollaaaaps

    May 23, 2010
    The Great Red North
    I wonder if the butterflies from this timeline could find some way to have the Swedish-Norwegian union last.... That'd be sweet.
  10. Dathi THorfinnsson Daði Þorfinnsson

    Apr 13, 2007
    Syracuse, Haudenosaunee, Vinland
    I don't know if this is covered later, but...

    BC had the same kind of anti-Asiatic fever that California did.
    And Australia's 'White Australia' policy is infamous.

    How can you say a British run California would be much more open to Asiatics?
  11. Dathi THorfinnsson Daði Þorfinnsson

    Apr 13, 2007
    Syracuse, Haudenosaunee, Vinland
    Re: sports
    One reason that rugby is not very popular in Canada or the US is ... that it is (in a highly mutated form).

    What we call Football over here (gridiron/US football/whatever) is a direct evolution of rugby. The immediate ancestor is actually Canadian - there were some Ivy League universities playing the game, and they invited McGill down. They were so taken with McGill's version, they adopted it, and that's what evolved into modern US (and Canadian) football.

    My dad when I was growing up in the sixties insisted on calling 'Football' Rugby, as it wasn't 'football' (i.e. soccer). Of course, by then it had long since ceased being Rugby either, but then my dad is ... my dad.:)
  12. Julius Vogel So

    Sep 3, 2008
    In NZ rugby has long been referred to as "Rugby Football", or "football". Soccer has become more popular of late and is making a determined attempt to capture the label "football" for itself
  13. Nugax talks in diagrams

    Mar 15, 2008
    London's sludgy aorta
    Yeah but whilst there isn't much reason for them to not merge, there is little reason for them to do so - the islands will still have to be secured by the Royal Navy and they'll thus want an independent voice in Westminister, and the Mainland BSA is going to want its military expediture to be small and focused towards the North and Mexico.

    Thus whilst it will almost certainly happen by the end of the 19th, it won't do so till BSA develops the industrial and commerical interests to make its independent hold over the Caribbean viable and Britain feels it has too much to do elsewhere and gives up some of the responsibility.

    A British controlled canal across the isthmus will slow this process due to the increased naval and commerical reliance of the whole Empire.
  14. thekingsguard Founder of Korsgaardianism

    Mar 28, 2010
    Virginia - near the USA-CSSA Border
    Being a proud Virginian, I am quite interested to see the effects of living in a border state will have on all parties involved.
  15. fero Banned

    Sep 9, 2010
    South America
    sorry, I take a look of this TL and look like a bristish/english wank

    quebec absorbed, british caribe, british india, british autralia, british patagonia, british south africa, and we are just in 1840, I think in 1900 british russia and American china or maybe Australian dominio of indonesia
  16. thekingsguard Founder of Korsgaardianism

    Mar 28, 2010
    Virginia - near the USA-CSSA Border
    ANy hope for an update someday?
  17. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Apr 20, 2005
    Founding of the Dominion

    The final Conference on Southern Federation occured in 1844. There was renewed interest in the federation after Texas came out in favor of the plan, and the only major colony in North America and the Caribbean to opt out was Hispaniola.

    It was agreed to petition the Crown for the formation of a federation. Almost as hotly discussed as the points of federation was the proposed name for the federation. At first, many favored refering to the federation as a new Kingdom of Southern America under the British Crown, but it was quickly realized that this might antagonize the United States to their north as well as the British Parliament. Several descendants of United Empire Loyalists whose families originally hailed from Virginia (among them Generals Grymes and Randolph) countered with 'Dominion', calling the new federation the truly faithful 'Old Dominion' of America. And so the Dominion of Southern America was decided upon as the name for the federation.

    The previous points of agreement from the 1843 conference were reiterated, and a few other points were added. The final document produced is considered by historians to be the true beginning of a Southern Constitution. The points included:

    • Restoration of civil rights for rebels who swore allegiance to the crown.
    • Representatives from all provinces to the federal legislature would be elected.
    • The rights of Aboriginal Americans to vote in Indiana would be preserved, but whites in the province would also be enfranchised.
    • No landowner or renter would be denied the right to vote.
    • Catholics would be enfranchised and allowed to hold public office in provinces where they were a majority such as Louisiana, Cuba, and Richport.
    • The Territories of New Mexico and California would remain under the jurisdiction of Texas until such time as they were populous enough to become full provinces.
    • The Minor Antilles would be under Dominion jurisdiction.
    • The British Government to commit to a trans-continental railroad to connect the Pacific Coast of California with the Dominion.

    The final report was sent to the Crown and Parliament, and on June 20th, 1845, the Dominion of Southern America Act was passed and a new jewel was added to the British Crown.

    The Founding Fathers of the Federation (sometimes irreverently refered to as the 'Daddies of Dominion') in alphabetical order by Province and Name:

    Henry Johnson Conway
    Thomas Rector Conway
    Thomas Drew
    John Hamilton Gray
    Edward Palmer
    Joseph Pope
    Archibald Yell

    Francis Bickerton
    William Bucktrout
    Mackenzie Hubard
    Frank Jaram
    Drake Watson

    Toby Jaram
    James Menzies
    Edward Robinson
    Michael Ross
    Thomas Tarpley

    Neill Brown
    James B. Campbell
    Newton Cannon
    Horatio Grymes
    William Andrew Johnson
    James Dean Jones
    James Randolph
    James Polk

    William Carter
    Carlos Cepedes
    Jose Heredia
    Andrew Hill
    Jonathan Jaram
    John Thompson
    Felix Varela

    East Florida
    James Anderson
    Joseph Gray II
    Thomas Heath Haviland Jr.
    Donald Henley
    George Mercer Johnson
    Charles Maitland
    James Middleton

    Edward Chandler
    Howell Cobb Jr.
    James Cockburn
    George Rockingham Gilmer
    Richard Gwatkin
    John Hardcastle
    George Wood

    David Evans
    Greenwood Le Fleur
    George Harkins
    John McGillivray
    William McIntosh III
    John Ridge
    John Ross
    Buck Watie

    J. W. Gordon
    Ronald Hubard
    Thomas S. Hunter
    John Ritchie
    Thomas Tilley
    Joseph Williams

    Paul Hebert
    Andre Roman
    Joseph Marshall Walker
    Daniel McDougall
    John Mowatt
    Floyd Pitt
    Samuel Levi Wells III

    North Carolina
    Edward Bishop Dudley
    William Holden
    John Howe Jr.
    Reuben Settle Reid
    Richard Dobbs Spaight, Jr.
    George David Swain
    Jonathan Worth
    Robert Brank Vance

    Primo Belvis
    J. Philip Benjamin
    Phineas Bland
    James Carter
    Juan P. Duarte

    South Carolina
    Seth Allan
    Robert Brown
    Alexander George Campbell
    Benjamin Carey
    Harold Corbin
    Barnabas Drew Henegan
    George McDuffie

    Moses Austin Jr.
    John Brown
    Sam Carson
    John Galt
    Isaac Brock Hamilton
    J. D. Henderson
    Hugh Macdonald

    West Florida
    Benjamin Fitzpatrick
    James Henderson
    Joseph Hunter Johnson
    Hugh Macdonald
    Bruce Miller
    George William Pitt
    William Sharkey

    1844 Federation Conference.png
  18. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Apr 20, 2005
    A lengthy list of links to the wikipedia pages used for finding the OTL families of many of the founding fathers of federation for the Dominion of Southern America, not fully in order.

    PS - The other names of founding fathers who aren't here without links came from a list of VA Loyalist families. John Howe Jr. George David Swain Edward Bishop Dudley,_Jr. Richard Dobbs Spaight, Jr. William Holden Robert Brank Vance Reuben Settle Reid Jonathan Worth Barnabas Drew Henegan George McDuffie Robert Brown Alexander George Campbell James Dean Jones Neill Brown James B. Campbell Newton Cannon James Polk William Andrew Johnson George Rockingham Gilmer Howell Cobb Jr. George Wood Edward Chandler James Cockburn James Anderson Joseph Gray II Thomas Heath Haviland Jr. George Mercer Johnson Joseph Hunter Johnson Benjamin Fitzpatrick William Sharkey James Henderson Hugh Macdonald Joseph Marshall Walker Paul Hebert Samuel Levi Wells III Andre Roman Daniel McDougall John Mowatt Thomas Rector Conway Archibald Yell Thomas Drew Henry Johnson Conway Edward Palmer Joseph Pope John Hamilton Gray J. W. Gordon John Ritchie Thomas Tilley, Juan P. Duarte J. Philip Benjamin Primo Belvisé_María_Heredia, Jose Herediaélix_Varela Felix Varelaéspedes Carlos Cepedes William Carter George Harkins Greenwood Le Fleur David Evans John Ridge John Ross Buck Watie John McGillivray William McIntosh III Sam Carson J. D. Henderson Isaac Brock Hamilton John Galt Hugh Macdonald
  19. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Apr 20, 2005
    Rained off, in what sense?

    Don't know if it was here, but there is a good chance of that ITTL certainly....
  20. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Apr 20, 2005
    Just one, just one - even a double header!

    Interesting - I wouldn't have thought of rugby as a game of the educated classes...

    Don't really know.

    Could be. In any event, we will see how sport evolves over time.