Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Glen, Feb 22, 2010.

Tags:
  1. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    [​IMG]

    A fall line is the site between an upland region of continental bedrock and an alluvial coastal plain. A fall line is particularly important where a river crosses it, as this is often the point where a river can't be navigated due to the presence of rapids or falls. In the early industrial age, this point on a river was also important as it often provided the ideal location for water-wheel driven mills and factories. The two factors combined made for the almost guaranteed growth of towns and even cities where rivers crossed a fall line along the east coast of North America.

    Cities and Towns along the Piedmont – Coastal Plain fall line in the United States of America and British Southern America include, from north to south:

    United States of America:
    British Southern America:
     
  2. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2009
    Location:
    Hitchin, Herts
    If you don't mind me asking, Glen, I have to ask what exactly you intend with this. To my mind it would be somewhat of a hard call having football truly end up nothing like modern football, largely because it had already taken shape into roughly the game we know now by the time it left the public schools and became a popular sport in its own right. After all, the Laws of the Game, as are recognised to this day, were written about a decade after football ceased to be a "public school thing", and they haven't changed radically since. I'll admit that other codes - such as rugby, American football, Aussie Rules etc - have formed and become popular in their own right, and I could give you this if that was your plan, but generally the splits happened because there were die-hard supporters of the original code, and people who wanted to introduce new ideas - such as running while holding the ball - and the two sides were irreconcilable due to the strong regard for the original form. In short, to my reckoning only by using butterflies to eradicate historical people who would shape the game to what it is now would football be unrecognisable, or perhaps by having another code of football overtake "real" football in popularity.

    Of course, it may just be the fact that I am a huge football fan, and could hardly bare to see something more resembling rugby or another sport overtake The Beautiful Game :D Save our sport! ;)


    Edit: Oh, and Glen - may I be the first to congratulate you on 1,000 replies :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2010
  3. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    In the mid 1780's, a plan was implemented to settle some of London's "Black Poor" in Sierra Leone in a "Province of Freedom." A number of black poor and, interestingly enough, white women were transported to the shore of Sierra Leone. This resettlement was preferred by many London philanthropists as a solution to continuing to financially support them in London. Many of the Black poor were stranded sailors of African and Asian descent inhabiting London. Sadly, disease and hostility from indigenous people eliminated this first group of colonists.

    Freedom was resurrected in Sierra Leone in 1809 when the British chose to make it their main base of operations against the international slave trade which had been banned by Britain. Slaves from all over Africa, though predominantly Western Africa, would be liberated at sea and set free outside of Fort Freedom. They joined together and became known as Creole or Krio people.

    [​IMG]

    Cut off from their homes and traditions by the experience of slavery, they assimilated some aspects of British styles of life, but were dissatisfied with the impoverished living conditions in the region, and a revolt broke out in 1813. The revolt was only put down by the arrival of over 500 Jamaican Maroons and Hispaniola Blacks, many of whom remained and settled after their service. They blended in to help form the Krio community and together they built a flourishing trade on the West African coast. African English quickly spread across the region as a common language of trade and Christian proselytizing. British and American abolitionist movements envisioned Fort Freedom as embodying the possibilities of a post-slave trade Africa. While small overall, Sierra Leone was still one of England's largest African colonies in the early 19th century.

    Fort Freedom's relative prosperity and status as a European colony, however, attracted hostility from regional tribes, and in the late 1830s they struck, taking advantage of the United Kingdom's distraction in North America. Fort Freedom was razed and many Krio had to take to the hinterlands, abandoning their homes and businesses. However, as soon as the Slaver Rebellion was defeated, the British Empire turned her attentions back to Sierra Leone. The Sable Legion, already a famed fighting force blooded in America, was shipped to Sierra Leone to repulse the indigenous invasion. The Sable Legion with Royal Navy backing quickly regained the territory of British Sierra Leone, but did not stop there. Surviving Krio flocked to the Legion's Black Banner, enamoured of their liberators, and in some cases nostalgic over the stories of their Caribbean forefathers who had quelled the rebellion. Just as the Sable Legion had absorbed many freed blacks in continental North America, so too did continental Africans enter their ranks. The Sable Legion went on to invade the lands of the surrounding tribes, extending Fort Freedom's reach by hundreds of miles. The bulk of the Sable Legion would remain in the region to fight Britain's colonial wars and maintain the peace, and would add their numbers to the Krio settlers, though other forces under the Black Banner would take part in the Wild Indian Wars of the British American Southwest.

    In the 1840s, many prominent whites in British Southern America would revive the vision of resettlement of freed blacks to Africa, with Sierra Leone their target destination. Other schemes would try British Guyana closer to home, or even Black-ruled Bahia. While these resettlement plans would add to the diversity of each area, sending a dash of the British American South overseas, they were never of sufficient numbers to change the demographics of British Southern America overall.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Arachnid Arachnid once more.

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2006
    Location:
    London, UK
  5. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

    I will bow to Plumber's comprehensive definition.;)

    Cricket appears to be even older than that, but yes, the 19th century saw its world-wide 'boom'. The Southern upper classes look to England for most things, and cricket will be popular among them. From them it will tend to spread to the other classes in the BSA.

    And this will be true ITTL's northern states aka OTL's Canada.

    I'm not certain that tracks - how does one explain the widespread adoption of association football this way but not cricket. Need to look into this part more.

    I would say, rather, that association football and rugby arose from the same 'pre-association' football games that existed in myriad forms before codification.

    Perhaps, but I can tell you that we in the US play more simplified versions of football as kids and don't miss the goalposts at all.

    Maybe, but I think we need to explore this more. I suspect rugby would have been wildly popular in the US if we didn't have American football instead.

    Yep - I think this also goes to the fact that there were earlier versions of football during the colonization of America and Australia, and given their long distance from England, no need to codify the same rules as it became possible to play more regional games.
     
  6. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2009
    Location:
    Hitchin, Herts
    You make some good points there, Glen, and undoubtedly my explanations had holes. Also I have to admit that they were written with a somewhat pro-football slant as, naturally being a born-and-bred English football fan I want to see football become the world's sport ;)

    Honestly I'm not sure about the solutions to the obvious flaws in my reasoning.
     
  7. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Well, hipster isn't really a class thing, but a lot of the upper and middle class youth do tend to gravitate to it, but there are opportunities in the subculture for lower classes as well - and of course, class is much more fluid in the US.

    Industrialize earlier, yes, but the north had some substantial industrialization before the ACW, which is one of the things that doomed the CSA.

    It won't be as simple as that, but the general trends I think are okay, as is your extrapolation of their impact on sport.

    Oh, sport is definitely on topic (as I am sitting in OTL watching USA - Ghana). Yes, your surmises are on target in general, though there will be other changes to state formation as well.
     
  8. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Well, while we always have to take wikipedia with a grain of salt, it would appear that there was a reference to a game called hockey (and other names as well) as early as 1825, and it appears to be documented as played in the 1850s as well, so the 1870s date is way late for a starting date - though it probably became more popular and codified by then. Here we will have a very similar game referred to as Ice Hurley.

    See above - as for curling, it will be there in the north of the US as well.

    We shall see....
     
  9. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2009
    Location:
    Hitchin, Herts
    Fair enough, Glen, but I think you missed the point of my post. My comment wasn't so much saying that the timing is wrong, I'm suggesting that the personnel are wrong. Yes, there was some early ice hockey being played earlier - I got my dates wrong - but I was thinking more about what we were discussing before we got onto sport - about migration patterns. When we were talking about British migrations to America I thought we were reasonably agreed that there were two likely patterns. If a migrant wanted to go to America, most likely he would go to a British colony - thus, the DSA. That is, after all, how the wastelands of Canada got the population they did in OTL. If they wanted to migrate away from British sovereign soil, as did the Irish migrants to New York etc and all the mass migrations to America in general, then since everything north of North Carolina is now American, surely they will migrate to a more natural climate - to New England or New York or thereabouts. Canada may receive migrations from more southern Americans over time, but European migration there is going to be dramatically lower.

    Going on from there, my point was that ice hockey was a game which came about from the Scots-Irish Canadian migrants - this was because they brought hockey over with them, and hockey, as football, cricket, rugby etc was originally somewhat of a British game. In particular, it was played by the Scottish under the name of Hurley, as the sticks are still called in some codes of hockey. I'm not saying that Canada will be devoid of sport, or that the Scots-Irish were the first to invent skating on ice. Of course those things are false. But they were the first to make the connection between hockey and ice skating. Under the circumstances, it's my belief that Canada may see its own native ice sport, but I don't think it will have a hockey influence, or even a European sport influence. No idea what you would see though.

    Of course, you are welcome to disagree with my conclusions. I just thought that we thought Canada wasn't really going to see the British migrations in this TL, and that somewhat butterflies the formation of an ice-based version of a British sport.
     
  10. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Well, it is true that I think the climate and conditions in the American North (OTL Canada) will not be as conducive to the development of cricket as British Southern America. On the other hand, baseball has fared reasonably well in the north, and it would fit the same weather parameters as cricket.

    From what I can tell, stevep is correct.

    Yep, pretty much.

    Fair enough - I will say that there will be an association football analogue ITTL, though it's not going to be precisely association style.

    Interesting speculation. If we again use American Football as a parallel, though, I'm not certain this theory holds up since many bastions of American Football were in the poorer, rural south IOTL.

    Wonder why now the spread?

    True enough for football I surmise.

    Interesting information - thanks!
     
  11. Rubberduck3y6 Pronoiar, Cyzicus & Aphrodis'n

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2007
    Location:
    England, UK
    Does baseball get rained off though?

    I think it might have been in this thread that I read that the spread of rugby to Argentina has/had something to do with the large amount of British and Irish people who settled in Argentina.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2010
  12. stevep Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Ah but how many days does it take to play a game of baseball.;)

    I don't know enough about US football's history but again even the US south probably have more wealth and education levels than most of the colonial world. Thinking education is important in that a lot of rugby is learnt at schools and you need some such institutions to provide the material and training. Not something you can easily pick up the basics playing with a few mates on the local village green.

    I was thinking why rugby it didn't take off in places like Indian and the Windies as cricket did.

    Could be simply that with news, wealth and travel abilities so much more widely spread its attracting interest in nations that were unfamiliar with it before and didn't have the facilities, material and social, to play it?
     
  13. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2009
    Location:
    Hitchin, Herts
    You did read that here, yes. I believe that it was the Welsh immigration to Argentina which in large part spurred the uptake of the sport.
     
  14. Arachnid Arachnid once more.

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2006
    Location:
    London, UK
    One reason for the popularity of Cricket as opposed to Rugby in the West Indies is heat. Rugby is a much more physically tiring game than cricket and in 30 degree heat its absolutely exhausting. That's why it played in the winter, however in places like Jamaica you don't have winter really.
     
  15. Plumber Manifest Destiny inspired Lebensraum

    Joined:
    May 31, 2009
    Location:
    北京Beijing
    Buuuump.

    Glen on break or something?
     
  16. Tom Veil Nowhere Man

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    Bump, bump, bump. I just discovered this a couple days ago, and I'm absolutely enchanted. I cannot let this die. In fact, if Glen doesn't resurface by Monday, then I might have to take on the task of collating the stuff that hasn't been posted in the Timeline forum. And then I will move on to voicing my opinion, and as Glen should know, I am difficult to shut up once I get started. I printed out the TL to read on the train, and now it's dripping with notes and ideas. (Among my notes-to-self: Georgetown! Pittsburgh! Capitol Hill! Great Basin International Peace Park! Francophone Missouri! War profiteers! 130 million! And other cryptic notes-to-self! :eek:)

    The Timeline Shall Rise Again! :D
     
  17. Julius Vogel So

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2008
    Glen is usually so good at updating too
     
  18. Tom Veil Nowhere Man

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    OK, for updating purposes, the following posts need to be folded into the Pre-Dominion (1766 - 1840) thread in the published TL forum:
    732, 735, 783, 784, 828, 865, 866, 873, 986, 1003, and the map at 797.

    The following posts appear to be post-1840, and so need a new thread in the published TL forum:
    741, 742, 761, 769, 792, 804, 817, 829, 841, 853, 888, 891 (needs editing), 915, 920, 932, 937, 962, 997, 1001, and the map at 965.

    I told you I wouldn't let this die.
     
  19. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2009
    Location:
    Hitchin, Herts
    Glen is usually good at logging in too, but he didn't for about three weeks, until recently. ;)

    I'd guess something important has distracted him and it's probably best to let him get back to this when he's ready.

    Hope it's nothing bad, Glen. In your own time.

    Yes. That one was very cryptic. Don't have a clue what that means ;)
     
  20. Tom Veil Nowhere Man

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    OK, I suppose "Francophone Missouri" is about as self-explanatory as it gets. :p And yes, my plan was to take the most painfully obvious path to getting French people into Missouri.
    My thoughts were that St. Louis has about 1,000 Frenchmen when it is sold to the USA, and AFAIK it's the only significant French population in the USA's half of the Louisiana Purchase. A lot of the French in New Orleans are not going to take to British rule, and St. Louis is a lot more like home to them than Revolutionary France. By the same token, while city-dwelling immigrants from back in France may find Quebec more attractive, French farmers would prefer the rich soil and warm weather of the Missouri river valley. Heck, a lot of Quebecois would probably be willing to deal with the occassional Blackhawk attack in exchange for those benefits.


    I might be getting people mixed up (it's hard to remember the "real life" details about people you know online), but IIRC Glen works pretty long hours. So I'm assuming that's all it is, until he informs us otherwise. I am just flagging this thread so that when Glen does return and is trying to decide where to devote his attentions, he will know what at least one man's vote is.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2010