Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Glen, Feb 22, 2010.

Tags:
  1. eschaton Muckraker & Rabblerouser

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2004
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    I see your point. The only issue I see with Florida is the agricultural industry there IOTL didn't really skyrocket until after WW2 (cattle ranching became big earlier, in the late 1800s, but you don't need much labor for that). If TTL operates like OTL, that means by the time Florida really gets running the prime period for Indian indentured labor will have run its course.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2010
  2. Nugax talks in diagrams

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2008
    Location:
    London's sludgy aorta
    I thought citrus and sugar took off in the 1870-1910 period?
     
  3. eschaton Muckraker & Rabblerouser

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2004
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    My understanding is that's the case (as is with tobacco), but the yields were much lower until modern technology could utilize the agricultural land in Florida to the fullest. Still, for example the citrus industry was much bigger in Florida than California during that period.

    Edit: The basic point is, IOTL, black labor (peppered with some white labor) worked fine up until the postwar period in Florida, as demand for agricultural labor was lower. Hell, Florida was 44% black in 1900 - the Great Migration is part of the reason why Latino migrant labor became important.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2010
  4. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Well, certainly the Discussion before Dominion section will be.:D Heck, they might even have a few where Guy Carleton doesn't become Governor of North Carolina, if you can imagine such a thing! And don't forget the Dominion-wanks where the British take half of Latin America, or all of Louisiana when Jefferson wins in 1800 in the USA and stays out of the fight, or where Texas doesn't sell territory to America before the Confederation is formed....oh, the list is endless.
     
  5. Spitfiremk1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2008
    Location:
    Brisbane, United States of Greater Britain.
    Although i haven't posted here yet, let me just say how much i love TTL :). Keep up the Good Work. However...

    British Dixie: YYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS :D

    French Western Australia and South New Zealand: NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :eek:
     
  6. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Ah shucks, just doin' my job....jumbling the timelines so as no one gets born we know.;)

    They are initially called Texan California and American California. These names will change over time, as you shall see....

    I think this map is absolutely wonderful! Definitely captures what I'm thinking. We may have to tweak it again sometime in future, but this is really strong work!!!
     
  7. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Thanks for your patronage, and for stepping out of the shadows. Yes, the 20th century should be quite different....
     
  8. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    The settlement of the Trans-Mississippi north of Missouri was delayed by many years by the tenacity and leadership of the Indian Chief Black Hawk. Born before the American Revolutionary War, he was one of the leaders of the Indians fighting the Americans in the Old Northwest before being driven across the Mississippi River by the Americans in the aftermath of the War of 1804. Black Hawk was able to rally the survivors and local tribes in the region into a new band that came to be called the Black Hawk Band. For years the Black Hawk Band engaged in raids into surrounding states, until a new treaty was negotiated preventing white settlement on the region west of the Mississippi controled by the band, centered on the Des Moines River. The peace held for several years, until the death of Black Hawk in 1837. Both the treaty and Indian resistance rapidly crumbled, and the region was opened to American exploitation.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    After the suppression of the Slaver Uprising and the dissolution of the Confederation of Southern America, there was a minor diaspora from the British South and the Texan lands. Some of the slaveocrats who had borne arms against the Crown could not abide in the land of their failure, surrounded by the blacks they had sought to keep slaves. A few who saw the end coming had managed to move them and some of their slave chattel to Portuguese Maranhao. More who lost everything in defeat were more likely to simply move north to the USA. Also liable to head north were those who had cared less about slavery and more about freedom from overseas rule. These southern immigrants often gravitated to the Democratic party which still had anti-British tendencies. The west, both of the United States and of the British South (which now included Texas, New Mexico, and California), also held some attraction for those trying to start a new life after their failure in the revolt.

    Ironically, some freedmen in the British South would also head west to try to build a new life, and former slaver and slave would sometimes find themselves standing shoulder to shoulder fighting against hostile Indians in the region. However, there would be other venues for blacks seeking a new life than the British west.
     
  10. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2009
    Location:
    Hitchin, Herts
    Interesting. What about the Hispanic upper class (former) slave-owners living in Cuba and the like? Does their different location (island mentality?) and ethnic basis make their migration patterns different, or even non-existent?

    Just thought you should know I saved up my 1000th post for this thread by the way :D
     
  11. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I actually heard Sulu's voice when I read that! Glad you like!!!:D:cool:
     
  12. DuQuense Commisioned Officer CSN

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2004
    Location:
    Florida ,CSA
    Given that half the blacks are Freemen, Legally recognized rite of Slave to be paid for work not for owner. legal recognized marriages between Free & Slave Couples, Etc.
    I don't see the Freeing of the Slaves as that big a change.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2010
  13. Gass3268 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Loving the timeline, but the fact that you named OTL Wisconsin - Michigan makes me sad :(
     
  14. Wendell Wendell

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Location:
    Lost in what might have been
    This is a good timeline overall thus far.
     
  15. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Hippie liberal? Now I've heard everything!;)

    Yes, there shall be some border redistribution ITTL....:cool:
     
  16. DuQuense Commisioned Officer CSN

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2004
    Location:
    Florida ,CSA
    Those Clothes the 5 Indians are wearing -- Are not what most People think of as Indian Clothing.
     
  17. Monkeyflung Eeek!

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Glen, this is a terribly interesting & enjoyable time-line.

    I'm currently about 10 pages back & working my way up, and I have only one criticism - it is quite difficult to read, sifting between the commentary/discussion & the actual storyline. I was wondering if maybe you would consider splitting this into two threads - a story-only thread & a comment thread.

    Its a tactic that's been taken by a few other TLs on the board (like The Complete United States of Ameriwank & England Expects That Every Man Will Do His Duty) & makes it easier read & keep track of everything that's going on.
     
  18. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Interesting thoughts, you ought to start a timeline to that effect! Well, we've already seen some butterflies hitting the continent, but only time will tell how far that will go.:)
     
  19. eschaton Muckraker & Rabblerouser

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2004
    Location:
    Pittsburgh
    IIRC, even before contact, cotton had spread from Mexico into what's now the U.S. south. Thus, even the "traditional dress" of the region was woven fabric, and a lot different from the stereotype of buckskin breeches or whatever.
     
  20. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Well, please do read the early stuff in the Timelines and Scenarios thread (easier that way), but it won't help that much as the reasons are inferred rather than explicitly stated (see below for more).

    Understood. The reasons for this difference in TTL and OTL is mainly that:

    • The British are more focused on the South and Caribbean than OTL.
    • There is less immigration to Australasia from the UK due to the British in the South and the Caribbean.
    • The French are doing modestly better since 1815 due to a more stable political outcome with the installation of Loius-Napoleon as president (think of him as in some ways equivalent to Juan Carlos of Spain IOTL and how he helped Spain after Franco). With more stable France, the French are starting to look once more across the world for influence. They see opportunities in Australasia.
    • After the Reform Revolution, the British are on a bit better footing relations-wise with the French, who also are a more liberal monarchy for the time.

    :D:D:D

    That's fine. Heartfelt compliments are always acceptable! And you can provide a lot of insight into your region of the world, which I am a hopeless neophyte in myself.:cool: