Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Glen, Feb 22, 2010.

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  1. Leistungsfähiger Amerikan Angry American with Guns

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    Oh what, now you criticize my militant expansionism? Bah, I knew this forum was overrun by hippie liberals!:rolleyes:

    But I can't wait to see what else you balkanize...
     
  2. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Yep, gave my reasons in the update. Sorry for the confusion.

    Yep, but its in their mutual self interest to 'play nice'.

    Well, that would be interesting, wouldn't it?:)
     
  3. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

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    Fingers crossed for Germany. I've been waiting a very long time for a good TL where Germany and Italy spectacularly fail to unite and the HRE/Confederation of the Rhine continues to exist and turns into a modern institution without the states essentially turning into regional council districts under an all-powerful Emperor, a la OTL.

    That said, in terms of plausibility...again, not so good.
     
  4. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    The 1840 Newark Conference kicked off the Women's Suffrage movement in the United States of America and thus the world.

    Prior to 1840, many politically conscious women had been active in the anti-slavery movement. With the successes of the British Reform Revolution and the quashing of the Slaver Uprising, it seemed that slavery was finally abolished (at least in North America). It seemed a natural segue for the energies of the American Abolition Movement to be transmuted into fighting the next great moral battle, the rights of women. At the 1840 conference, such important leaders as Lucretia Coffin Black, Sarah Jane Smith, and Hannah Livingston Cady.

    Over the course of the 1840s, the fight for women's suffrage would take on different forms in the two main parties. In the Federalist Party, women's suffrage supporters fought to get a constitutional amendment to extend the vote to women nationwide. In the Democratic Party (which started to be shortened during the 1840s from the earlier name of Democratic-Republican), advocates focused on gaining women the right to vote in the individual states.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Emperor-of-New-Zealand It's a figure of speech

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    BLASPHEMY! I guess now I'll read some skipped parts of your timeline (heh :eek:, I'm kinda lazy) to find out how this happened.

    French NZ wasn't really possible in the 1830s OTL (despite what some people think, France's influence was seriously minor). They just about screwed up every attempt here, and by the time they colonised Akaroa the British instantly came down and put up their flag. The next round of colonists were so shocked that the ship captains lied and said that they did it to appease the British who were "entirely" focussed on the North. In reality, the original colonists were diplomatically forced into it.

    Now, since your POD is far before this I'm not going to be picky, and instead I shall spend the next few days (lazy, lazy me) rereading the parts I've read and not skipping anything.

    Oh, I don't know. It would mean less car-crashes and street races if Christchurch didn't exist as we know it.

    ---

    BUT! From what I have read, I do really think you're doing a fantastic job. I'm still amateurish at best in most aspects of history (still young, still young), so I find it hard to comment on anything other than your timeline as a whole. Sorry about that :eek:.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2010
  6. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    I sort of posted the response by posting about the history of the state of Panama. While we always have to take wikipedia with a grain of salt, they too stated OTL Panama weighed the options of joining Mexico or Gran Colombia. Here, they gravitate towards a more federalist Mexico over a more centralist New Granada.
     
  7. Julius Vogel So

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    ENZ - while I agree that in OTL a French NZ or French South Island is unlikely, in Glen's timeline British Australia is far weaker than it is IOTL - due to Britain's focus on the South.

    It could be quite possible that Britain would have different interests or cares it this time line, wrt NZ.

    This sadly will kill me as my ancestors landed in Dunedin and Christchurch in the 1850s BUT if this timeline is one when a future ATL AH.COM isn't beset by threads along the lines of "What if the Confederacy won" and Guns of the South isn't written, I consider my sacrifice worth it

    ;)
     
  8. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Go figure. Don't know how I got that messed up, then. Consider that the reference refers to his being more involved in politics and having a strong sense of duty and responsibility, but favoring reform over conservatism. I might need to do a revision of that post to make it more clear.:eek:

    Interesting background on the struggles over education. I'd say that there's not enough change yet to change that trajectory, but there may be other developments later that could change things.

    Just out of curiosity, what do you think would have made a difference in this?

    BTW, this does remind me of the Anglo-German Alliance question on education; there's a timeline where I definitely think it changed.:cool:
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2010
  9. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Yes (for now, at least), and yes, no Pancho Villa ITTL.
     
  10. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    There would be a similar Anglo-Chinese interaction, at least so far. If the British had weaker anti-asian rules,then yes. The question I suppose is whether the US will have as strong anti-asian rules ITTL? Time will tell that one. Japanese fishermen in Baja would be cool, though we'll have to see how the opening of Japan transpires.....
     
  11. stevep Member

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    Good question. Not sure of the answer. Some nasty shock, i.e. like WWI but a bit earlier. Or someone bashing heads together and pointing out that getting the children educated was the main priority, not which particular Christian theology they were taught, although that's a bit unlikely given religious ideas.:(

    One possibility might be something happening to negate Thomas Arnold's reforms at Rugby school. Although I think there were other people doing similar things at other private schools around the same time. However his changes gave the private schools a lot more prestige, before which they were mainly renowned for aristocratic pupils and their riotous behaviour. Also he introduced a strong bias towards the humanities. [That had some big bonuses but did mean that the technical subjects were downgraded].

    If you managed to prevent those reforms then the private schools might continue to have a bad reputation and the up and coming industrial and trading interests be deterred from sending their children to them. In that case they might have invested in developing their own educational facilities which also might have had a markedly more technological emphasis.

    That's about the only thing that comes to mind as a POD that might swing things more in the direction that I would favour.

    In terms of the Anglo-German alliance TLs that might have an effect, although markedly later. With good relations with Germany people in Britain might be interested in their educational system, which was very good in terms of producing well trained technical people. Also you might see more people going to Germany for education, at least in the shorter term.

    Steve
     
  12. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Thank you very much....I think....;)
     
  13. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Actually, your worst fears gave me the clue to look into the situation in the region. Thanks!:D

    Naw, they could always migrate to the British South. Where would you like them to go?;)
     
  14. Julius Vogel So

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    Anywhere that has trees and has at least a 50% chance that I won't end up as an ATL redneck!
     
  15. Nugax talks in diagrams

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    I can see the British doing what they did in Guyana and importing Subcontinental Asian indentured labour to Florida and wherever on the Gulf coast/Caribbeen has shortages as the emancipated Blacks move away.

    The East Asians would quickly migrate to other trades and the plantation owners had less sway over them compared to the South Asians (who could be recruited by company men in India and forced into bad contracts, whilst the other Asians had to have sufficent mobility and skill to begin with to finance their own migrations to America and thus were less stuck with the horrible jobs).
     
  16. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

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    Curse you, my own sense of historical interest. :mad: Stabbed in the back by myself once again.
     
  17. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    The British Province of Indiana was created to reward the steadfastness of the Civilized Tribes in repulsing the Confederationists and staying loyal to the Crown. The more jaded commentators of the time noted that it was in the their best interests to do so, but others point out that the civilized tribes had made their peace with the Empire long before the contingencies of the Slaver Uprising.

    The most fierce fighting for the Loyal Tribes had been just west and north of the Chattahoochee River, though fighting also was seen along the border with West Florida, though here the Indians were more likely to take the battle into white held lands rather than the opposite.

    The lines between native and British had been blurred significantly in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Many frontiersmen intermarried with the local tribes, so much so that many of the leaders of the tribes were more Scots than they were native! Similarly, there were not a few leaders in both the Loyalist and Confederation camps who might claim at least one ancestor of native extraction if they were so inclined.

    When the Province of Indiana was established, the British made it clear that here, at least, the right of Indians would be upheld equal to that of any other British subject, with the right to responsible government. The first capitol of Indiana was established at Tuscaloosa.

    The tribes that dominated the early history of Indiana were the Choctaw and the Cherokee. The other three main civilized tribes consisted of the Chickasaw, who prospered from trade along the Mississippi River where they were ensconced, the Creek, who were most notable for their successes in the invasion of West Florida, and the Cimaroan, who were closely allied with the Creek. Other than the Cherokee who spoke an Iroquoian dialect, these tribes were primarily speakers of the Muscogean language, though almost all knew some of the King's tongue, and many in the tribal leadership were as proficient in English as any Englishman.

    While the tribes had been slaveowners, the line between slave and free in tribal society was vastly more fluid than in the rest of British Southern society, so it was not a hard transition from slave to free for this region, and the recompense offered by Parliament gave a needed boost to the region's economy. Also, once the war had ended, the province was able to benefit from the Gold boom in its eastern region. Whites still ended up prospecting the region as much as any native, but they now had to pay for the right, though some got around the restrictions by being adopted by a tribe. Whites who had fought for the Crown found this much easier than some who had fought bitterly against the Indians in the Southern Civil War, but even here a few former enemies who had earned respect in battle found the natives more receptive than some whites might have believed.

    The new province's assembly was structured into a bicameral legislature, with an elected lower house and an upper house of representatives appointed by tribal leadership. Overseeing all of this was the Crown's appointed Governor.

    Five-Civilized-Tribes-Portraits.png
     
  18. eschaton Muckraker & Rabblerouser

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    Excellent idea! In OTL, the British did that with Guyana, Trindidad, Fiji, South Africa (esp Natal), East Africa (now largely gone of course), Mauritius, and British Malaya. It basically began as soon as the emancipation IOTL, so I'd expect the same general trajectory here.

    Except...the second part of the driving need for Indian labor was a labor shortage in all of those areas. It's unclear to me if the southern colonies will face such a shortage. Also, they're presumably going to be under self government within twenty years, and in OTL, British colonies under self-government didn't really participate in this. Queensland, for example, came up with its own "solution" to the plantation problem, despite having essentially the same crops as many of the areas with Indian indentured laborers.

    Regardless, I expect an Indian population of at least a few percent. It could become substantially more, rivaling the black population in places (outpacing it even in California), but that's all up to Glen.
     
  19. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Interesting, I was not aware of that.

    Let's just say that there's a general gentlemen's understanding that the Western Hemisphere is now off limits.

    More later.
     
  20. Nugax talks in diagrams

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    Thats why I specified Florida (which doesn't have much of a plantation sector as of the yet) and the Caribbean, as I don't think that many places will need the labour (but those which do will need a lot).

    Queensland was adverse to the Indian labour for cultural reasons (the power of unions and racism), the Pacific labour the Queenslanders brought in was both much more under the table and got round the legal restrictions on moving Indian labour*. Plus with the shorter distances and even less expectations the Pacific Islanders were cheaper.

    The DSA will have both a different attitude towards race and labour relations and no cheaper alternative to the Indians IMO, so things might be rather different (more like South Africa than Australia perhaps?).

    *Standards for pay and treatment (even if really shitty ones), and an onus to move women and families so that the new labour would settle in the west indies.