Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Glen, Feb 22, 2010.
I wonder how this will all turn out.
A long time coming - The Danubian Spring sparks a hot European Summer.
This could be very long and bloody, given the sides and technology.
How independent is the DSA in terms of foreign affairs at this stage? Probably going to be a lot of volunteers for supporting the homeland but that could well drain as casualties increase and especially if London tries to prompt something more vigorous. [Would depend on how both nations have developed].
I presume that Prussia/Poland has come in on the eastern side given its relations with Austria and opposition to Germany? Will Bavaria be able/willing to stay outside? Also Italy could be interesting.
Big fan of the TL, and excited about the upcoming war. I do wish though that the last update was a little more detailed beacause there seems to be a lot happening in April 1889. What about mobilization timetables and the minor powers? I looking forward to seeing how this all works out.
Less than 600 posts left to post until this is the PRE-1900-TL with the most posts in total (only DoD is larger as a thread). Impressive.
Anyways, interesting to see a big war finally popping up.
I'd like to know how Austria-Hungary will fare in the war. If their military capabilities are roughly similiar to OTL the Korsgaardian states of Eastern Europe are screwed since Prussia-Poland won't be able to fend off Germany and France alone (at least not for very long).
The Balkan theatre will also be interesting. You already mentioned how the northern Balkans (probably Romania and Bosnia) are already overrun by the Korsgaardians. Though it will get interesting when Britain (and maybe France) gets into the region to assist their Ottoman ally.
Only time will tell, sadly. Looking forward for more, as always!
PS: When you have difficulties implementing my cameo or need further info, just contact me. Don't want to sound demanding or anything.
If I'm correct, the alliance system is GB, France, Germany, and the Ottoman Empire against Romanian Rebels, Austria, Russia, and Prupol. Okay.
A Nativist party with populist policies - would that really be conservative? Sounds like a racist leftist party to me.
Actually, Quebec in the Union has in fact done a lot to take care of that linguistic insularity you referenced.
Unrecognizable is an over-characterization - each Korsgaardian movement takes its own form, but they have more in common than not.
While I don't think this is going to Be a early WW1, or even a Russo- Jap war, It is going to be the first true Industrial War.
Gatlings* & proto Machine Guns, Heavy Artillery, Breech Loading Repeaters on Both Sides.
* ?If it lasts long enuff will whe see the development of the Electric Gatling that was abandoned in OTL?
I wonder if Mexico will attempt to join its ideological brethren. If so it's easy to see a Mexico-DSA front in the war. Of course, this would be a damn stupid decision by Mexico, as even though they are stronger, and facing a weaker enemy than the U.S. was, there's no way they can win if the British Empire provides enough support, or if their allies lose the war in Europe.
A fair point!
Time will tell....
While the war may have started as a dispute between the powers over the disposition of the Balkans, it would not remain such. The first major event in the expansion of the war to other nations centered on Europe. While the Eastern Powers had excelled in initiative and rapid advance, the Western Powers had the edge in espionage. Thus it was that famous British Spymaster Matthew Rossall discovered the evidence of the Korsgaardian Empires' master plan for carving up Europe among them. The documents and letters purloined by Rossall's spy network demonstrated the insane audacity and avarice of the Eastern nations to many nations in the West. While the information would not be made privy to the public for several years after, due to concerns of compromising the sources of the information, the people in power knew the perfidity of the Eastern Potentates. Thus did Scandinavia, Italy, and the Roman Republic enter the war. Pope Pius X even came within a cat's whisker of declaring a new Crusade against the Eastern nations.
Is it bad I squee when I see the United Kingdom of Scandinavia on the map?
Here's hoping they can nab Lappland in the war!
Those Eastern powers were a bit optimistic about The War...
I enthusiastically await this beginning of combat.
I hope the Eastern Powers prove victorious.
I hope Germany annexes Austria and Prussia and puppetizes Poland and Hungary, while the Ottoman Empire annexes the Crimea
As much as I'm interested to see how that war would play out, the Balkans are not divided realistically. The Empire of Austria could probably extend down to Albania, but once it extends with a sliver of land south it will be frankly impossible to defend, and difficult to support and administer. I would think they would far rather have Bosnia, Montenegro, Albania, and Serbia under their direct control much more than one they would be getting otherwise (even if it includes Bosnia, Montenegro, and Albania). Further, the actual goals are far too harsh to be realistically acceptable by any power with the possible exception of the Ottomans depending on how "European" they are considered in this timeline. The Kingdom of Germany would be outright divided between the other two German Empires, this is something that wouldn't happen. It wouldn't even be remotely acceptable to the powers France, Netherlands, Belgium, and others. Scandinavia is treated second most harshly. They could either take Finland, or they could either take part of Denmark. Not both and then some. The Ottomans, again, depends on how European they are. Its just too harsh and the outside world will object.
This may be the point, but... I don't believe these are realistic war objectives.
haha, and so my cameo is revealed, and I love it . As with most of the other cameos it will probably only be a one-post mention, but he still sounds awesome enough that I can now sit back in my chair as I read this thread and bask in the imaginary glory I can imagine him receiving off-camera, carefully orchestrating all of Britain's actions in the East from behind a veil of secrecy none can penetrate. Or that's how I like to picture it.
I'll refrain from commenting about just how realistic I think the East's war goals are, partly because given the comparisons to fascism I find myself comparing them more with WW2-era war goals, against which they are far more tame. Of course, I think we all know that the East won't be successful enough to actually pull this off anyway - when is anyone ever so successful as to completely get what they want in war? - so I'm as ever far more interested by the war and the subsequent peace treaty's actual terms than anything.
An excellent TL. Personally, I am rooting for the Eastern Powers, if only because I think that would be more interesting than a Western victory. However, I do have some issues with the goals:
1. I think Naples and Hellas have more to gain from allying with the Eastern Powers, and, although they are playing cautious right now, they will likely join the EP if it starts to look like an EP victory.
2. Austria-Hungary's little piece along the coastline and giant thing in Italy are unlikely if it really wants such a giant piece of Germany. All I can see it want aside from that are Montenegro, Serbia, and the territory between them (Bosnia & Herzegovina) in the Balkans, and Venice in Italy; the other parts of Italy conquered by the Austrians would probably go to the Neapolitans, in addition, most likely, to Corsica and Sardinia.
3. Russia, on the other hand, seems to be limiting itself in the south. The weird tail to the Hellan border is unlikely, but Russia would likely annex Moldavia, all of OTL Bulgaria, Romania, East Macedonia, Thrace, European Turkey, and the entire southern coast of the Black Sea, including the city of Constantinople. This would probably be administered via a series of puppet-states (neo-Byzantium, neo-Trebizond, anyone?). In the north, Russia probably wouldn't aim for much more than the OTL Russo-Finnish border (ie, total control of Lake Ladoga). The southern front would likely be the focus.
4. The area of the Ottoman Empire not given to Austria or Russia in the Balkans would probably be partitioned between Naples and Greece (assuming, of course, that the two of them fight). Greece would also aim for Cyprus, Smyrna, and maybe some other parts of western Anatolia. They would want Constantinople, but I doubt the Russians would give it.
5. Although, again, I can see the partition of Germany, I doubt that much would happen to Scandinavia. Border adjustments with Russia and Prussia-Poland (assuming the border in Jutland becomes one with PP); maybe handing some ports over to Russia or Prussia on the Swedish east coast, but Scandinavia would survive, if only on account of there being bigger fish to fry.
6. I doubt the Easterners would mechanically stop at the French border; Alsace-Lorraine (approximately) would also be included in Prussian and Austrian gains.
7. The question of what happens to Britain is interesting; they're so far removed from the proceedings that it's difficult to see them losing land of any sort. Perhaps Central Asia and Afghanistan can be given to Russia, but I think Russia would be fighting on too many fronts -- for this to realistically occur, the Eastern Powers might have to form some sort of covert alliance with Indian nationalists, resulting in widespread sabotage of British war efforts in the area of OTL Afghanistan - could this happen?
8. Assuming Naples enters the war, could we see a North African front develop?
That said, this is an excellent TL, Glen. I just doubt a lot of those war aims.
They are war aims. Even if the Eastern Powers do well, I doubt they will actually get all they want from this war, particuarly with regards to Italy and Scandanavia.
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