Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Glen, Feb 22, 2010.

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  1. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Oh, and FYI, Rossall was on the short list of possible names for the founder of The Devil's Army - maybe next time, eh.;)
     
  2. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    [​IMG]
    The Japanese Civil War would prove disasterous for the island nation. The daimyo, mostly in the south, rallied around the Emperor, who had been anti-foreigner and particularly anti-Russian for years. The Tokugawa Shogun found supporters for his more open, councillatory approach to foreigners in the north, many of whom had looked the other way or actually actively supportive of smuggling between Japan and Russian Sakhalin.

    Initial battles went poorly for the Tokugawa faction, who were driven further and further north - until the Russians returned with force of arms. The Shogun allied with the Russian expeditionary force, making a treaty with the Russian Empire favorable to them, in return for Western arms and training, as well as direct support from the Russian military, especially the navy.

    By 1857, the tide of war had turned dramatically, with Edo and the Emperor's court in Kyoto taken. In desperation, the daimyos and the Emperor turned to other foreigners - the Dutch initially, whom the Emperor had contact with in their one trade outpost in the far south, Dejima. They would fight fire with fire.
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    Last edited: Jul 31, 2011
  3. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    By 1858, the Chinese Revolution, in southern China at least, had become secure enough to make real changes to the governance and culture of the Chinese. Hakka, Hui, Han, and others in the south had abandoned the subservient practice of shaving their foreheads and keeping a queue, as had been demanded by the Manchu. The republicans of the south also banned the practice of binding the feet of girls. In fact, when the Chinese Constitution was adopted (based heavily on that of the USA), it was the most liberal of the time, with equality for women highlighted as much as freedoms of speech, language, and religion. As an aside, the name for the law enforcing freedom for missionaries of all stripes to prosetylize in China finally gave credit to Reverend Murphy - Murphy's Law.

    The Queen of England, Empress Elizabeth (formally named Empress by Parliament after India became officially part of the British Empire after the Sepoy Uprising), was quite taken with the Chinese Revolutionaries when she learned of their efforts to liberalize the role of the women, and began to apply pressure to Parliament to recognize them as a legitimate government and provide support. As history would record, Empress Elizabeth was a difficult woman to say no to.
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  4. stevep Member

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    Glen

    Two interesting updates. I hadn't realised that Russia had already occupied Hokkaido. Sounds like their going to have the upper hand, at least for the moment. Ironic that the anti-foreigner imperial court are forced to turn to foreign aid themselves. I notice you say 'at first' the Dutch which suggests they find a more substantial patron to try and counter the Russians. Which in the short term can only worsen the problems for Japan as it means the war goes on longer and probably gets bigger.

    Sounds like there's going to be some useful reform in Britain. With the changes in the rebel area of southern China is it going to be stable enough and lawful enough to avoid the assorted unequal treaties and specifically the fact that foreigners could appeal to their own courts rather than Chinese ones?

    Steve
     
  5. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Yes - due to butterflies in the Pacific Northwest they solidify their hold on Sakhalin very early, and onward to Hokkaido - but I seem to be missing that update for Hokkaido - oops, better work on that!

    Yes, isn't it.

    Yes, that is true.

    Already has been, but yes, it will continue.

    Well, they will likely have to honor the already existing ones in the short term, but I think they might be able to avoid adding to them and have some more equitable renegotiations in future - if they survive, that is.....
     
  6. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Well, I went back to address Hokkaido and now I think I know what happened - I was thinking of having them in Hokkaido early (and it should have been called by a different name) but the butterflies would have reached there too late to make that likely and scrapped it, but when I wrote these recent updates I forgot about all that. Therefore I will retcon the mentions of Hokkaido to Sakhalin.
     
  7. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    In 1859, the Siege of Peking brought the Qing to their nadir. The south was under defacto control by the republicans, and the anti-Qing traditionalist rebels were at the gates of the Forbidden City. It is not known how exactly how the Emperor died, though he had been sickly for years, but the death of the Qing Emperor was the final straw that broke the Qing back. The traditionalists took command of Peking and proclaimed an end to the Qing dynasty and to Manchu domination, with plans to raise a new Han dynasty to the throne.

    One of the first actions of the new regime was to expel the Manchu from their positions of power. This began an exodus of the Manchu back across the Willow Pallisade into Manchuria, though some Han who had become too close to the Manchu over the decades would accompany them. A scion of the Qing Emperor would be proclaimed in Manchuria as the legitimate emperor, but essentially his authority would extend no further than Manchuria proper.
     
  8. Lord Grattan consigned to OTL

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    Sad to see the Qing Dynasty end this way. :(

    RE: Hokkaido - How about calling it Ezochi.
     
  9. Plumber Manifest Destiny inspired Lebensraum

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    Hmmm.... Manchuria is not majority Han by this point...
     
  10. stevep Member

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    Plumber

    Don't think so. Most of them came much later. The Qing had a policy of forbidding Han settlement in their homeland although I would have expected that some would have managed to make it.

    Steve
     
  11. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Well....

    Yes, that is its proper name in this time frame.
     
  12. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Ah, noticed that, did you?:) Yes, Manchuria is still, well, Manchurian at this point, though, yes, there will be people other than Manchus there and who go there - but it is at this point majority Manchu.
     
  13. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    BTW, anyone have a good 1) Dynastic name for a new Han Chinese Dynasty and 2) a good regnal name for the first new Han Chinese Emperor?
     
  14. Plumber Manifest Destiny inspired Lebensraum

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    We're agreeing here :p

    Zhang Dynasty? Wang Lung as the common name would be a good nod to The Good Earth. Go to this thread for people far more qualified on China, though.

    Here's a map of 1870 or so, but the US internal borders aren't updated (busy atm). Anyone care to take a shot at it? Mississippi's border is a bit wrong.
    These links can help: comparison of OTL and TTL and the newer territories and states.
    DominionofSouthernAmerica.png

    DominionofSouthernAmerica.png
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2011
  15. jtjr26 Member

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    Nice map. Was wondering will industrialization spread in similar patterns as OTL or will the changes in TTL lead to different rising powers come the min 21st century?
     
  16. stevep Member

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    Plumber, Glen

    Interesting map. I hadn't realised there was such a large state in S America that looks to include Peru down to Chile & Argentina. If stable that could develop into a fairly powerful nation, possibly also pushing Brazil into a similar position.

    There seems to be a pretty large Mongolia, presumably a Russian puppet? Know much of the south was termed Inner Mongolia at the time but suspect there's probably more Han than Mongols in it which might cause problems later?

    Steve
     
  17. teg The Worst Unionist

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    So the position of Japan and China is reversed ITTL; China is modernising while Japan is becoming balkanized and dominated by more powerful countries. This could trigger some major butterflies in the early 20th century (good luck fighting a modernised China)
     
  18. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Indeed, I believe we all are...

    Hmmm, where did you get that from? It is the most common surname in China (And thus, the world!) and could mean a few things, including 'opening up' - which is not quite right for the new traditionalist dynasty I suspect...

    On the other hand I really thank you for at least giving me ideas.



    Not a bad sentiment, my friend. Again, not quite sure about it for a dynasty name, though. Keep the ideas coming!

    Thanks for the idea!

    A nice first stab at the map - some things need to play out further for you to get the whole thing, though. You are, of course, correct that the US state borders need to be updated.
     
  19. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Probably a mix - some familiar OTL faces, and some new TTL faces....
     
  20. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Yes, there is, isn't there - it is the UPSA on steroids.

    Huh? Pushing which Brazil into what position? You lost me there.

    That part of the map is not quite right - will clarify shortly once events in China reach a steady-state.