Dominion of Southern America - Updated July 1, 2018

[thekingsguard]

Im Sick of Taylor Swift

I dont want to offend anyone, but chances are she is butterflied away anyway. Even if somehow she isn't i doubt she will be a singer like OTL

I had no idea you could use Taylor Swift and 'I'm sick of' in the same sentance .

But honestly, its all just good fun. I too just want to wait for the next update.

 

[Glen]

i was thinking more like my country tis of thee 1831 based on god save the queen/king

Butterflied.

or Hail Columbia 1789

Some version may still exist, though it's awfully late in America...

but what were some french nationalistic songs i am ignorant to them i will fix that but help is welcomed. I found this Chant de guerre pour l'Armée du Rhin it could be used for they army hymn coming out through french/ German immigrants or the Quebecois

Ah, it is La Marseillaise! And in fact La Marseillaise will still exist ITTL, far enough from the initial butterflying to survive. It will not be used in America, though.

 

[Glen]

Well, we shall see how the music scene takes shape.

Indeed.

I still say British Talor Swift is needed!

Or some other Anglo-Southern Ingenue!

In hindsight, considering jazz and rock and roll will more then likely never exist, I think thats a fair trade.

There will be a rather vital music scene in the DSA - and it will certainly have a backbeat!

Also, How is Mark Twain in this world? I would imagine he would be a tad different considering the Missisippi River is not just in the USA now.

Some relative of Samuel Clemens is likely to be born, and may even live along the American Mississippi, but not the Mark Twain we know...

For th record, my vote for National Anthem for the USA goes to either America the Beatiful or God Bless America

Too late.

 

[Glen]

Glen

I got curious enough to Wiki her and that says that she was born in Pennsylvania

Dear God, Wyomissing! My mother's family has been in the Berks County area for centuries!!

so [butterflies ignored] would she be that much difference. Wouldn't comment on her love life as it only mentions a couple of fellows, although does sound like she's not having a lot of luck. She does seem to be very charitable through.
Steve

A Taylor Swift analogue would have an American accent, perhaps with a few more French phrases laced within than IOTL, but may be attracted South of the Border to take part in the Southern Music Scene - curse those soft talking, hot blooded Southerners!

 

[Glen]

can we get an idea about the political dynamics of the two countries

In what sense?

 

[Glen]

Will there be an update soon? Im curious as to whats happening in Australia and South Africa

Bit bogged down at work, and the internet was down in my house last weekend - might be able to get one or two updates on this weekend.

Im Sick of Taylor Swift

I dont want to offend anyone, but chances are she is butterflied away anyway. Even if somehow she isn't i doubt she will be a singer like OTL

Oh, we know that, but we're having fun 'speculating' on this.

 

[Glen]

I had no idea you could use Taylor Swift and 'I'm sick of' in the same sentance .

But honestly, its all just good fun. I too just want to wait for the next update.

Ditto, ditto...

 

[Glen]

We now have the fourth largest number of posts in Before 1900.

 

[Earl_of_Somerset]

Number 1 by end of the year or bust!

 

[Glen]

Number 1 by end of the year or bust!

That's a pretty hefty goal in a section housing LTTW!

 

[sudfamsci]

In what sense?

what are the major parties important issues where are the safe vs swing states that sort of thing also i meen USA and DSA

PS my school was predominantly blue/green

 

[thekingsguard]

Some relative of Samuel Clemens is likely to be born, and may even live along the American Mississippi, but not the Mark Twain we know...

I am glad music will have some familiarity to OTL, but no Tom Sawyer or Huck Fin? Horror of Horrors!

Without Mr. Twain, who will be the first world reknowned American novelist?

 

[Arachnid]

what are the major parties important issues where are the safe vs swing states that sort of thing also i meen USA and DSA

PS my school was predominantly blue/green

Racial issues are going to matter. The DSA is narrow white majority and thanks to European immigration that narrow majority will keep growing but there will certainly be some seats which will be heavily Black or American Indian versus some that will be lily White and even if the DSA has a more Brazilian attitude it is still going to matter.

 

[Nugax]

While racial issues are going to matter. The DSA is narrow white majority and thanks to European immigration that narrow majority will keep growing but there will certainly be some seats which will be heavily Black or American Indian versus some that will be lily White and even if the DSA has a more Brazilian attitude it is still going to matter.

Eh? Its going to be 60-70% white for a very long while (and that'll only be overturned by caribbean OTL growth, which might be less if they're better off ITTL).

Plus you might avoid moronic amounts of gerrymandering like in the OTL south if the DSA adopts more British civil service traditions.

 

[Arachnid]

I was doing some more thinking about the DSA's Demographics in 1850.
Essentially it can be divided into three. The Caribbean (including Puerto Rico) was 70% Black in OTL and has a population around 700,000. The West is essentially empty as far as settled people who acknowledge the authority of the DSA are concerned.That leaves the "South" or really the East, as as far as the DSA is concerned the Caribbean islands are its South. In 1850 in *OTL the population of the entire South was around 8 million with around 3.2 million slaves and an estimated 250,000 Indians. That means a total for the *DSA in OTL of 9 million adding in 300,000 American Indians in the West.
Now we can assume that the Caribbean is essentially the same with Puerto Rico added and that the Black population in the East is roughly similar to OTL. However the big question is White immigration and Indian survival. Sad as it is the American Indian population was falling as famine and war destroyed the tribes. Here that is not true, or at least not as true. This is obviously going to have an effect. The other addition is the "East" Indian immigration. While Glen hasn't given details I doubt it would be more than 200,000 or so, if only due to cost and most would be heading for the empty West rather than the fuller East.
Now lets say that additional immigration pushes the White population from 4.7 million in OTL to 5.5 million (17% more) and less genocide means the American Indian population stays static at 600,000 between 1830 and 1850 rather than dropping as growth among the Civilised tribes cancels out deaths among the uncivilised. Add in 250,000 East Indians (natural increase) and 3.65 million Blacks we have a total of 10 million for the DSA in 1850. All these figures are just my guesses, its your sandbox.
This means there are going to be major regional differences with a Majority Black Caribbean, narrow white majority South-East, a North East (i.e. the border provinces that Glen mentioned) that is in order American Indian/White/Black and a White/American Indian/East Indian/Black West. This is because I guess that the majority of settlers will be White either straight from Europe or from the East adding to the local Indians and "East" Indians brought in for the railways, Black migration West will be held down by poverty and discrimination. This regional difference is obviously going to bring a lot of diversity but also political tension with more regional identification than in the more homogeneous USA.

All ready had a crack at it for 1850 and 70% white is way too far though I suppose 60% is possible. However Glen has stated that the DSA is going to have more "Brazlian" attitudes with regards to race rather than the strict colour lines of the US. In my above figures I haven't included pardos or whatever mixed-race individuals get called. If the DSA is more racially harmonious (meaning more inter-marriage) than the OTL US South (and its not hard) than the mixed race group is going to be growing very fast. That could have a serious effect on demographics 100 years later. Possibly something like 35% White, 30% "Mixed", 25% Black, 5% American Indian, 5% East Indian. Or maybe Mixed race individuals identify with the race they are closest too rather than as Mixed-race individuals completely altering my guess. Its up to Glen.

You are correct that the British system of impartial districting is going to be a help but with regional differences in racial make up you are still going to have variation from very white seats in the West to very black seats in the Caribbean. Also like Brazil there is going to be a correlation between race, class and income which is going to lead to a degree of self segregation.

 

[Nugax]

I disagree with using OTL population estimates for the DSA mainland in 1850, as there has already been massively different immigration flows in and out. Your base numbers also appear off.

For one thing the OTL 1850 population of the southern states was only about 7 million, with 2.5 million blacks. In my model earlier in the thread the DSA has another 1.7 million, pretty much all of them white. I get high sixties as the white fraction.

If they are having a Brazilian attitude then the white fraction would effectively be more - a reverse one drop rule means if your "pretty white" you get counted as "white" due to that being the "best" racial catagory even with less discrimination.

Such a thing is important, if a white majority feels more secure in itself they will be less opposed to helping other racila groups get up a social mobility ladder.

 

[Arachnid]

If they are having a Brazilian attitude then the white fraction would effectively be more - a reverse one drop rule means if your "pretty white" you get counted as "white" due to that being the "best" racial catagory even with less discrimination.

I got my base statistics off the internet but can't find them again, I will look.

However I reckon you are wrong about mixed race people. I think that with a more Brazilian attitude you are going to get more interracial couples, which with 4 different racial groups will be highly varied with Black-American Indian, White-"East" Indian etc. not just White-Black.
The offspring of such unions are unlikely to "pass" for the high status of White or Civilised Tribe Indian, but will not want to be burdened with the "worse" categories of Black and East Indian. This coupled with having sufficient numbers to be a culturally recognised group you have the formation of a pardo "race" in which people take pride.
Obviously you are going to get people who can pass for White or American Indian deny the heritage for advancement. That is inevitable, but I think there will be sufficient who cannot fit themselves into the higher groups but don't want to be condemned to the lower groups that the creation of a middle "race" is very likely.
In the long term you might get a situation to Brazil where some pardo people claim to be "more" Brazillian than Black or European Brazilians.

Edit: My OTL statistical base for the figures above is the racial mix shown in the wikipedia CSA article and the List of US states by historical population also wikipedia.

 

[Falastur]

I wonder what the naming conventions will end up being like in the DSA. Will they be quite American as OTL which reflects the mixed cultural heritage and the mix of emigrant communities, where unusual names (Jebediah, Lamar, Amos, Randy, Casey, Jackson, Blake, Kayla, Mackenzie, etc etc) are seen as exotic/interesting? Or like the British style where it's rare and seen as "odd" to not have a "classic" name (i.e. John, Richard, Tom, Philip, Mary, Jane, Emily etc)? Or perhaps will there be a heavy Spanish influence from the inclusion of Texas and the Caribbean islands?

 

[Glen]

Sorry, been hammered in RL, but will be back strong in March!

 

[Glen]

can we get an idea about the political dynamics of the two countries

In what sense?

what are the major parties important issues where are the safe vs swing states that sort of thing also i meen USA and DSA

PS my school was predominantly blue/green

As of the mid 19th century, in the USA the first party system still remains - more or less. TTL's Democrats (direct descendants of the Democratic-Republicans) are much more centralist than the earlier party, but still the least centralist of the two main parties. They favor State's Rights (which is not quite as big of an issue sans slavery), tend to favor Laissez-Faire economics and be anti-tariff, free traders. They are pro-agrarian and pro-expansion. Their strongholds tend to be in the Southern and Western states of the union, with their powerbase shifting a bit with the growth of the nation. This party tends to be harder in 'wild' indians, but there is a strong pro-female suffrage component to the Democrats. They have tended to have a love-hate relationship with the DSA, seeing it as both a vital trade partner but also in some ways a rival for the USA.

Next time, the Federalist Party of the USA.