Dominion of Southern America - Now with Tyrannodrakons!

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Glen, Feb 22, 2010.

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  1. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Perhaps, perhaps....

    One could make an argument for any and all of the above.

    Whole US.

    Well, in a way the Virginian plantation system still continues after slavery, just transforming into a more seigneurial/sharecropping type system.

    Loose ends tied!

    Indeed.

    Could be....

    Free Slave?:confused:

    This, too, is possible.

    Thanks, thanks a lot....
     
  2. DuQuense Commisioned Officer CSN

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    OTL the French Revolutionary government Freed the Slaves on the Island and sent Revolutionary Governors to enforce this.
    When the British occupied the Islands in the 1790's they keep the Revolutionary Governors in place. along with the degree freeing the Slaves.
    When Britain returned the Islands to France in the 1803 Treaty of Ameins, Napoleon receded the Degree [See how well that worked OTL Haiti] and sent imperial Governors to the Islands.
    Britain then reoccupied the Islands in 1804 and Reinstalled the Revolutionary Governors, And reissued the Freedom Degree.

    If Britain is seen ITTL as upholding the Revolutionary Degree, then a lot of the Haitian Free-Slaves will flock to the British Banner.

    However this may then cause troubles in Cuba & PR, where half the blacks [25% of total population] are still slaves.
    {The great growth in number of Cuban Slaves took place between 1814 [Congress of Vienna reiterated Spanish control] ~ 1830's [British Navy began enforcing ban on Slave Trade]}
    Problem here is that post 1807 and the installation of Joseph, Charles IV, King of Spain, fled to London where He became a British Ally. Leading to the British stopping all attacks on Spain outside Iberia.
     
  3. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Good points. My impression here is that ITTL the revolutionary governors are removed from office. The British will not remain rather mute on the question of slavery in these islands unless pressed on the subject, in which case we'll see individual commanders using their own initiative (some will reimpose slavery, others will respect the abolition).

    :confused:According to the above they did IOTL, and yet Haitians didn't flock to the British Banner IOTL....

    British won't seek to abolish slavery on these islands.

    Ah, yes, that appears a problem at first glance. I suspect here that the British seize them to deny the Bonepartes any foothold in the New World while at the same time securing the Caribbean, which they have an even stronger interest in ITTL, for Britain. Charles IV acquiesces to the annexation as part of the price of continued British support.
     
  4. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    The 1810s saw the outbreak of revolutions throughout Spanish America. Inspired by both the American and French Revolution, yet rising up in opposition to the deposing of the Spanish King, the revolutionaries of Spanish America found themselves supported by the foe of both, the British Empire. With the British blockading the Atlantic against Spanish and French forces, the rebellions in New Spain, New Granada, and Rio de la Plata found fertile purchase. By 1815, independence was achieved in Mexico under Generalissimo Ignacio Allende and New Granada under President Antonio Nariño. The United Provinces of South America grew to encompass Chile and Peru after the successful military actions of José de San Martín, who by 1820 was proclaimed Supreme Director of the UPSA.

    José de San Martín began as the UPSA's most successful general, under whose command Chile was freed from Spain when the reluctant general was persuaded to accept the Governorship of Chile. He served ably in this post until he was called back to the field of battle to free Peru, whose grateful people voted him Protector of Peru. The leadership of the UPSA, having seen his ability to lead without despotism in Chile, and his popularity in that new state as well as Peru, convinced him to accept the Supreme Directorship of the whole of the UPSA. Under his leadership, he set the standard for future leadership of the nation and democratic rule, especially when he retired from office rather than making it a permanent position, which many historians felt he could. For this reason he is often called in the English speaking world "The Washington of South America".

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    Generalissimo Ignacio Allende of Mexico

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    President Antonio Nariño of New Granada

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    Supreme Director José de San Martín of the United Provinces of South America
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2010
  5. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Flag of Mexico:

    [​IMG]

    Flag of New Granada:

    [​IMG]

    Flag of the United Provinces of South America:

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

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    Sorry. I meant to say "freed slave". That is to say, former slaves, and their descendants.
     
  7. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Time will tell....
     
  8. President Sam Houston Well-Known Member

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    Wow. I go away for a day or so, and come back to see how much meat you have given us to devour. Glen, I am a big fan.

    I really like how you intertwined the Second Great Awakening and the Deist Movement in your history. The evolution of Deist thought into a full blown evangelistic christian movement is brilliant. Please don't end it there though, keep the updates coming. IIRC, in our TL the 2ndGA was just as important in New England as it was in the South and West, with Boston really being the center of American Evangelical Protestantism. Missionary and Bible Societies sprung up all over New England and New York, with their primary mission being to evangelize the world. So I hope to see your Deist Movement take up the evangelism fervor that existed in OTL New England around the turn of the 19th century.

    I also want to see how the effects of a large and growing plantation aristocracy in the Southern colonies, than seems to be bouyed by the addition of plantation aristocracies throughout the Caribbean, will influence London in economic and political terms. With Sugar plantations throughout the Caribbean becoming a economic lifeblood for Britain and the soon to be King Cotton, adding to the wealth Britain will realize from its American possessions, I can really see a future where abolition efforts back in England are silenced in the name of profits. Hmm. This could be really interesting.
     
  9. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

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    To contrast the rise of the Christian movements in the Second Great Awakening, who had views which could be described as "heretical", what about groups such as the Methodists? Or is your TL suggesting that kind of "new age thinking" Christianity is going to eventually dominate the USA, in a kind of proto-Arian reverse?
     
  10. eschaton Muckraker & Rabblerouser

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    Hrrm...looking at your map, it looks like the Dutch lost Surinam somewhere along the way. Did they seize it from the Batavian Republic, or something? And if so, do they own all the other dutch islands now? Clearly, they're on their way to totally dominating the Caribbean, but if nothing else they still need to buy the Danish West Indies.

    Also, in 1803, French Louisiana north of New Orleans consisted of nothing but Saint Louis (which had around 300 people, IIRC), and a bunch of fur trappers, so seizing it would have been beyond simple for the Americans, even with the logistical issues.
     
  11. stevep Member

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    Correct, the two posts obviously crossed just before I turned in.:)

    Steve
     
  12. stevep Member

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    Glen, DuQuense

    Would it be more the case that Britain took control of the colonies. To secure the resources for the allied [i.e. British] war effort and deny French privateers any bases to operate from. OTL Britain returned most of its gains at the 1814-1815 peace treaties. This time it might be more awkward in the Caribbean as the islands will look very attractive to the DSA interests, to strength the position of slavery as well as make money. Also the earlier collapse of the Spanish mainland empire means there might be an interest in keeping the islands to deny Spain any bases from which to possibly try and retake its empire.

    However even if only occupied for the duration, which I think is more than Britain did OTL, plus the greater support for the mainland revolutions is going to have some impact on Spain. Might be less support for Wellington's army if there's a campaign in Iberia. On the bright side for Spain it can probably avoid being distracted by fighting to regain the colonies after the war.

    Britain is going to have some identity problems. Supporting independence movements in Latin America and freeing some slaves in Haiti while the abolition movement will be building up steam. However at the same time having the much greater planter bloc in parliament as the southern colonies combine with the interests in the islands, especially with more islands under British control.

    Steve
     
  13. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Thanks, Sam. Eat up!

    Thanks. I've often thought the Deists just needed some fire, and the Second Great Awakening was such a chaotic event that one can imagine all sorts of different permutations coming out of it. I also like the reinforcing effect of that leavening of French revolutionaries who played with such ideas as the Religion of Reason and Deism reinforcing American ideas on it. Never fear, we shall return to the religious development of America, among other cultural facets, at some point further down the timeline.

    Yep, pretty much the same here.

    Yes, Britain is going to be getting even more cash from slave plantations, it's true. Time will tell how that weighs on things.
     
  14. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Um, a lot of people would have called Methodism heretical back in the day.;)

    If you think about it, a lot of the movements that came out of the Second Great Awakening would have been called heretical by previous standards. The ones that succeed get to define what is heretical, and other denominations will either have to learn to live with that (as happened somewhat IOTL) or actively oppose it.

    Note that Methodism and the Baptists are more popular among free blacks in the US and slaves in the South as well as poor backcountry whites in both.

    This is old age thinking!:D In any event, dominate is such a harsh word. Let us say, rather, they shall not disappear from mainstream religious discourse.
     
  15. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    They are seized as per OTL, as are most of the Caribbean possessions of those who may provide an excuse to base or resupply a French squadron.

    Time will tell how much they keep. We haven't finished the Napoleonic Wars yet.

    Exactly. This is a short victorious war for the Americans, barely worth the name. What is more important is that the British bought them off so they're flank to boot the French out of the Caribbean, which in turn frees the Royal Navy up to be other places, and so on.....
     
  16. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Well, don't let that stop you from keeping the comments rolling.:D
     
  17. Glen ASB & Left Hand of IAN Moderator

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    Yes, spot on.

    Right again, and not just the Spanish....

    Well, you are right that there is probably less support for the British, but the ones who want to throw out Joe Boneparte have precious little choice if they want some support during the Peninsular War. After is a different matter....

    True! They can pay much more attention to killing each other in Iberia!:eek:

    Which actually describes OTL Britain in the first half of the 19th century pretty well.:) Let's say we've not created a new trend but rather made it more compressed and poiniant.

    Well, not exactly, as the Southern Colonies and Caribbean Islands have no direct representation. What they do have are influence and business partners who are!
     
  18. Rubberduck3y6 Pronoiar, Cyzicus & Aphrodis'n

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    Great timeline! I just have a few little questions: on the map you posted, it looks like British Louisiana is a separate colony to the Carolinas, Georgia and the Floridas? Just asking as there were a couple of posts speculating about the westward expansion of those colonies. Also, where does the Mexican flag come from?
     
  19. Falastur Fighting Swiss-wank since 1291

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    mmm...perhaps. Mostly they were accused of being fanatics and attempting to create a controversy by whipping up a hype amongst the lower orders of the public. They never tried to redefine theology, they only sought to promote a lifestyle of extensive Bible study, except on smaller points such as the role of women in preaching. I say this as a Methodist myself ;) Indeed, the Wesleys never attempted to leave the Church of England, they merely (IIRC) had the split forced upon them when they started making unlicensed ordinations of ministers in the USA when the Church of England cut the colonies off directly after the ARW.

    However, that really wasn't my point, debating semantics. My point was that I identified in your update a definite highlighting of the sects which sought to essentially redefine scripture - including arguing against or attempting to somewhat tenuously re-evaluate the meanings of a lot of scripture to fit their religious views. The comment made about God creating the world and then withdrawing all involvement in it to let destiny run its course seems to directly contradict most of the Old Testament, for example, while the idea that one's wealth directly correlates to their Godliness appears to oppose every Jesus taught about giving away all worldly wealth and living humbly. To the best of my knowledge, Methodism doesn't advocate any viewpoints nearly as controversial as these. Again, I wasn't trying to argue for or against this, I was merely wondering if you highlighted these just as some of the more extreme and interesting viewpoints to flavour your update, or if you were genuinely trying to suggest that in TTL, the Second Great Awakening, rather than a common Revival, was in fact the advent of the takeover of the Deist movement and other...radical redefinitions of Christianity, shall we say...in their path to becoming dominant in the USA.
     
  20. stevep Member

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    Given the OTL state of Parliament, unreformed with a lot of rotten boroughs and plenty of ways to peddle influence, that can be a lot of power. Also, as the cotton industry develops there will be business interests who will want to avoid rocking the boat and disrupting business. Probably also concern, having lost half the colonies because of trying to influence them, there might be reluctance to upset them, at least while the planters are politically dominant in the dominion.

    I would expect that pressure for abolition will development but will be hindered by the interests of the dominion and islands.

    On the plus side the interests of the south and the manufacturers in Britain will be aligned and encourage co-operation. The US might go protectionist even earlier than OTL, although it may suffer as a result if it cuts itself off from European [especially British] products.

    Steve