Domesticables of North America

But they didn't always. I imagine they would at least expand into British Columbia.

I suppose the question we need to ask is why didn't they? What was the barrier for the Saiga? Too much competition? Predators too effective? The wrong kind of fodder?
 

Zirantun

Banned
Ok, sorry to double post, but I was able to find this pdf on the cultivation of a related species of tule in Central America, Cyperus canus:


http://www.keesjansen.eu/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/TuleCeiba.pdf


This species is apparently widely cultivated, but only for its use to make 'petates' or sleeping mats. I am yet to find anything on the species that grows on the Columbia River, Schoenoplectus acutus. At least on how it was cultivated. Everything I read just says things like "...and was widely cultivated by Native Americans, especially in the San Joaquín Valley..."


Thank you... but it would be very satisfactory to know how cultivation worked...
 

Zirantun

Banned
I suppose the question we need to ask is why didn't they? What was the barrier for the Saiga? Too much competition? Predators too effective? The wrong kind of fodder?


They went extinct 10,000 years ago before the idea occurred to anyone, and immediately correlating with the introduction of humans to the Americas. This is part of the reason I wanted to move Neanderthals and Denisovans into North America first, because they seemed to fit in more with the local ecology than we did, and maybe allow the fauna of North America to shed their naïveté of modern humans when we arrive.


I found this thread that challenged some of Jared Diamond's theories on domestication, which I have always been very wary of myself:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=258273


I do agree with a lot of the principles that this user laid out. Following these, if the Quaternary Extinction in the Americas is not as severe, due in part to animal's being accustomed to humans, then humans may develop a close relationship with some of the remaining animals, such as Camelops and Saiga borealis borealis, specifically. Keeping horses is iffy to me. It's been done already, and it's not as exciting in my opinion. Hippidion for sure, but Equus scotti, and Equus francisci probably not.
 
Yes, so I realized that a couple days ago, I just didn't say anything on this thread about it. That would be why I changed to tule. However, I am unaware of any kind of chronic toxicity or difficulty to digest as we ate clover bread when I was a kid in Washington a few times as a specialty when my parents made it. Bananas are also notoriously difficult to digest as well as taro, yet they have been cultivated all over the tropics and the Pacific for centuries.
I don't know for certain, but given that clovers are legumes, I would be very surprised if the seeds weren't toxic in some way. Just because you ate it as a kid doesn't mean it isn't toxic. I know that white clover contains cyanogenic glycosides in the green parts, but I'm not sure if the seeds do too.
But, sedge-based agriculture... how do we farm a sedge?
The Chinese grow water chestnuts, and Europeans grow chufa, so it's not unheard of. I imagine that patches of tule would be tended for their seed rather than any large scale cultivation given that tule needs water, and it would be difficult to create more marshy areas in summer-dry climates.
 
They went extinct 10,000 years ago before the idea occurred to anyone, and immediately correlating with the introduction of humans to the Americas. This is part of the reason I wanted to move Neanderthals and Denisovans into North America first, because they seemed to fit in more with the local ecology than we did, and maybe allow the fauna of North America to shed their naïveté of modern humans when we arrive.

Nevertheless, the larger question is why didn't they spread further in our timeline. You suggest that they might spread to British Colombia. But in OTL they didn't. So why not?

Looking at the historical ranges of the animal, they're not really all that widespread - not now certainly, but even in their relative heyday. They seem to be a 'marginal countryside' form of antelope, which begs the question of why they don't compete successfully in richer country? They have a competitive advantage in marginal countryside - possibly to do with their proboscis, partly to do with the ability to eat inedible or toxic plants. What's their competitive disadvantage elsewhere.


I found this thread that challenged some of Jared Diamond's theories on domestication, which I have always been very wary of myself:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=258273


I do agree with a lot of the principles that this user laid out. Following these, if the Quaternary Extinction in the Americas is not as severe, due in part to animal's being accustomed to humans, then humans may develop a close relationship with some of the remaining animals, such as Camelops and Saiga borealis borealis, specifically. Keeping horses is iffy to me. It's been done already, and it's not as exciting in my opinion. Hippidion for sure, but Equus scotti, and Equus francisci probably not.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=241781

For your interest.

There is some indication that humans may have been in the new world as early as 25,000 to 30,000 years ago. If so, then it may suggest that what happened was a cultural innovation - new tools or strategies and tactics shifting to big game hunting. Or possibly environmental shifts.

Given the Saiga's relatively narrow habitat window, I think its more than possible that the post glacial period put their north american population into a major habitat bottleneck.
 

Zirantun

Banned
Ah! I have been infected with some sort of a bot! I suppose that's what I get for staying on that clearly infected website where I got the info on antelope horns... I just downloaded Ad-Aware though, so this shouldn't be a problem.


I wonder that myself. Today they there are two species: Saiga tatarica and Saiga borealis mongolica. One once ranged into better habitats, such as Panonia, but was exterminated until its range only included this "crap" country to which you refer. The other, is the same species, but not the same subspecies as the animal in question. I suppose it then depends on where the species got started. Did it start in North America and migrate back to Mongolia? Quite possibly. If this is the case, then this animal is adapted for harsher habitats, and its domestication would follow a similar pattern to that of the reindeer in Scandinavia. Therefore, it may be that they are later introduced to, and not native to the Columbia Basin region. If the species got started in Asia and was on a path of expansion in the Americas, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't expand farther south.


Still, in the first case, if agriculture starts in the Columbia River Basin then these people may have domesticates of their own and may not want the Saiga (Big Horn Sheep). I want to make it work though.
 
While i think that THórs goats do indicate real goat carts, Freya's cats dont indicate real cat pulled carts. Didt another god have a boar?

So, ja, using mythology is very tricky.

Edit Freyr rode a MECHANICAL boar, of all things.
hmm... do you suppose his hog was a HarleyDavidson?
 

Zirantun

Banned
hmm... do you suppose his hog was a HarleyDavidson?


Probably. The technology became lost when the Vikings gave up paganism and converted to Christianity. lol.


Well, I have learned that Lavasoft Ad-Aware is probably one of the worst things that's every happened to my computer. But amid the chaos that was its uninstallation this morning I was able to read an article that suggested not only that the variation between Saiga populations is more phenotypical and less a sign of true speciation or subspeciation, but that it was the expansion of taiga over tundra that caused their extinction in North America. Since the North American population got there about 75-80,000 years ago, it had not survived the same habitat reduction that its European phenotype (or species, it's a debate) had. However, given that the author spent half of the article writing about how proven the adaptability of the animal is only to cite an inability to adapt as a detrimental factor to its survival in the last paragraph. It was so adaptable in dealing with climate extremes, why exactly would it be so hard to adapt to a more forested environment? Reindeer and caribou do pretty well in the forest, even with their migratory patterns. Just as well, the fact that the animal used to range into Panonia and and Romania in historical times makes me doubt that this was the primary factor...


I don't know though. What do you guys think?

I mean, if we have to go with caribou, Camelops, and Hemiauchenia as the only domesticates North American domesticates in this timeline, we can do that. But I would LOVE to have Saiga if it is at all plausible.
 

Zirantun

Banned
Here are some species that I was considering for cultivation in the Pacific Northwest, specifically the Columbia River Basin:


Tule
Arrowhead
Bistort
Silverweed
Watercress
Wild bergamot
Mint


Obviously these would not all immediately be cultivated as agriculture develops. Tule, Arrowhead, and Bistort would likely be the first domesticates. Although, it has come to my attention that as tule is much more common in California's Central Valley, it would probably be cultivated here first, as this is one of the most fertile agricultural regions of the planet as well. Bistort is more common in the Washington-Oregon area, and would probably start here, and Arrowhead is found all over the West.

What do you guys think?

Let me know, I gotta go to work for my 10 hour shift.
 
So in doing some research for a possible world with a POD 176,000 years ago, I've been looking at possible domestic plants and animals of North America.

As I posted in the topic Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons in the Americas, I was thinking of saigas as a possible replacement for sheep/goats.

I know there are a lot of grains that were cultivated in the Eastern United States, especially sunflower seeds, but what about the values of domestic clovers in the West?

Here is a site I came across for edible wild plants of the Pacific Northwest:

http://www.northernbushcraft.com/plants/

What do you guys think?

I'd never heard of a saiga so I looked it up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga

Looks very much like a sheep with horns!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
I'll once again say that arrowhead seems eminently suitable. It looks and acts much like taro, which has been a staple food crop in many places. The fact that it is widespread also helps, since that means it can be cultivated in a wide variety of places.

The one downside I can see is that it's a very thirsty plant, requiring still water to grow in, so further inland and in southern California, it wouldn't do so well. However, that could be a good thing-the unreliability of arrowhead during drought or outside of the relatively narrow coastal strip between the Rockies and the Pacific could prompt it's farmers to experiment with other plants, leading to the other crops on your list being domesticated.
 

Zirantun

Banned
I'll once again say that arrowhead seems eminently suitable. It looks and acts much like taro, which has been a staple food crop in many places. The fact that it is widespread also helps, since that means it can be cultivated in a wide variety of places.


But taro in and of itself has never been enough to support "complex societies". This alone I think would help the Americans in this timeline (who are going to be a world away from our Native Americans) to search for alternatives. That is if arrowhead bears any nutritional similarities to taro. If it is more nutritious than taro, then it could be the sole cultivar for awhile in some areas.



The one downside I can see is that it's a very thirsty plant, requiring still water to grow in, so further inland and in southern California, it wouldn't do so well. However, that could be a good thing-the unreliability of arrowhead during drought or outside of the relatively narrow coastal strip between the Rockies and the Pacific could prompt it's farmers to experiment with other plants, leading to the other crops on your list being domesticated.


So is rice. Which is why I didn't see much problem with the cultivation of a sedge like tule, as the early gathering strategy would've been extremely similar. Still, it could be effected by drought, however, I cannot stress more the fertility of California's Central Valley. If you can figure out how to get the water there, it'll grow. The Columbia Basin is also a fertile place, and I think would be the home of cultivars like bistort. But Tule did grow abundantly behind the cemetery in Richland on the Yakima, and so did cattails... I read DValdron's little "sluts" theory on domestication of plants, and I think it's pretty agreeable, especially in the case of cattails in the Columbia Basin. Tule, not so much, and with its multiple uses, it not only has nutritional but market value. But for some reason, it was the Californians who cultivated it the most in our own timeline. Why is that, I wonder?
 

Zirantun

Banned
MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I have it!


I think I do, anyways. I was able to pull up the following pdf off of Google Scholar about the behavior and history of the saiga antelope:

http://www.ubss.org.uk/resources/proceedings/vol18/UBSS_Proc_18_1_74-80.pdf


It's actually the most detailed thing I've read thus far on them. Knowing more about their behavior has shed some light as to how they might become incorporated into society in North America as an early replacement for sheep. Apparently they mate in winter, and do not have a very set migratory range, following prevailing winds and migrating into a variety of different habitats. They have a preferred habitat, which is dry, arid steppe, often subarctic or even arctic (as seen in the North American variety), but in times of extreme summer drought, will look elsewhere, in scrublands, and even open woodlands. Calves are born in spring, and they migrate into more southerly pastures during the winter to escape the snow.


I did a little research on how reindeer were domesticated, and it appears that they were herded into pits and butchered or kept over time. I therefore see no reason why saiga could not become the staple food of a population of marginalized humans (probably Denisovans) in Alaska, who would herd them and keep them into similar pit pens and keep them from performing their yearly migrations for winter storage, which could over a significant amount of time, with calves being birthed in these pens and imprinted by humans, result in domestication.


This may occur in a few areas, however. A group in more forested areas of Alaska might want to keep saiga for medicinal purposes, or possibly for the taste of their meat (which apparently is another reason they've been poached over the centuries), perhaps when the spring rains are poor and the saiga stay where they know the water is, resulting in similar imprinting of calves in captivity by hunter-gatherers. If this kind of trapping is done successfully over generations, with those imprinted calves being released that the hunter-gatherer bands could not keep in pens after they moved, populations that do not mind human presence would ever so slowly, but surely develop, eventually paving the way for herding.


These human herded saiga would be in a better position to survive once the climate begins to change, as by this point in time, humans, and not the saiga themselves, would be leading the migrations. I imagine the initial stage would happen about 120-130,000 years ago in my timeline, with the final process leading to the full domestication about 10-11,000 years ago at the end of the Last Glacial Period. Once the wild populations are extinct, the human herded ones will not have wild counterparts with which to breed freely, and more selective breeding will be able to take place. The saiga would then spread out of these isolated pockets with the humans that domesticated them, across modern Canada, and south into the modern United States, being bred for its wool, its meat, and its milk. Maybe as a draft animal, but Camelops and Hemiauchenia, who would both have adapted to more than 100,000 years of human presence before the arrival of modern humans, would definitely be the best bet in this department.
 
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