Domestic policy in a Cold War against Nazis

[Strategos' Risk]

Say the Nazis and assorted fascists took over Europe, incapacitated the Soviets, pulled out of France and the Low Country after implanting puppet states, and toned down their atrocities to OTL- Soviet Union level political purges rather than outright genocide, and the West got into a cold war against them.

What would domestic policy outside of the Reich be like? Would it all be inverted? So unlike in the U.S. when the far right occasionally got support because they were against the damn pinkos, in the U.S. would the revolutionary left occasionally get support because of their unflinching opposition of fascism at home and abroad? Would there be witch hunts against conservative political and cultural figures?

 

[MFOM]

Actually i don't think so. Conservatives do not equal National socialists nor do they equal the KKK or Ayran nation. Look through the Nazis's Statist governmental one party country, price and wage controls, sub ordination of the induvidual to the state, control over the economy, high taxes and government job programs. These are not classic principles of the Amerian conservative. In my way of thinking socialists and their communal principles or economic populaism will remind people to much of all powerful controling state, like that of the nazis. So perhaps the US will be more conservative.

 

[luakel]

Hmm, I don't know if the US will actually be more conservative (something that seems like a bit of a challenge in it's own right)... after all, Nazis aren't as easily identifiable with the Left as communists. But at the same time I doubt there will be a "Right Scare" or anything like that in the 50's. This US might actually be more moderate, maybe with more parties than the big two.

 

[Wendell]

Hmm, I don't know if the US will actually be more conservative (something that seems like a bit of a challenge in it's own right)... after all, Nazis aren't as easily identifiable with the Left as communists. But at the same time I doubt there will be a "Right Scare" or anything like that in the 50's. This US might actually be more moderate, maybe with more parties than the big two.

I think that both you and MFOM may both be right in part.

While I think that the drive for civil rights will be stronger in this TL's U.S., I feel that key aspects of American conservatism/libertarianism will be stronger as well. The typical Republican in TTL's 1960's and 1970's will be Goldwaterites IMO. Barry Goldwater himself may even be President. The Nazis would hate that. By their definition, Goldwater would be a Jew...

 

[luakel]

Goldwater as president, hmm? Sounds like a US you'd like to live in, based on what you've said about him in the past.

Though if any party gains from this ATL, I see it as the libertarians. Many of their stances would be directly opposite to those of a surviving Nazi Germany, after all... Perhaps as a result of this the GOP doesn't go conservative as in OTL, but stays more moderate? And who knows what would happen with the Southern Strategy?

 

[Wendell]

Goldwater as president, hmm? Sounds like a US you'd like to live in, based on what you've said about him in the past.

Though if any party gains from this ATL, I see it as the libertarians. Many of their stances would be directly opposite to those of a surviving Nazi Germany, after all... Perhaps as a result of this the GOP doesn't go conservative as in OTL, but stays more moderate? And who knows what would happen with the Southern Strategy?

Or, the libertarians could even be stronger within one or both of the larger parties. I'd guess the Republicans. After all, FDR would still be the great leader who led the nation through the Great Depression, and the war with Japan. Furthermore, The U.S. under FDR will likely have supported Britain firmly, even if never in the European War itself.

As for the GOP being more moderate, it depends on what you mean by that. I think that the Rockefeller REpublicans might just falter sooner ITTL. That said, TTL's GOP would, in my view, never become overly cozy with social conservative religious forces.

Regardless, American politics will be interesting ITTL.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

The problem with a US-Nazi cold war is the uniquely infiltrative method of national socialism/fascism.

"I have sen fascism. And when it comes to America, it will be wrapped in an American flag and holding a bible."

Somebody I don't recal said that, and it has a strong piece of truth.

Nationalism/patriotism could combat the seduction of international communism, but what is good for some things isn't good for all. Too much patriotism could lead to "creeping-fascism", and then what?

One big domestic challenge is civil rights. If anything, I'd bet they'd be harder in this TL, unless the Nazi race policy leaks out.

 

[Wendell]

Of course Nazi race policy would leak out. Some form of white supremacism is essential to Nazism IMO.

 

[luakel]

One big domestic challenge is civil rights. If anything, I'd bet they'd be harder in this TL, unless the Nazi race policy leaks out.

Good point, sadly eugenics programs might continue for awhile in the US.

 

[Wendell]

Good point, sadly eugenics programs might continue for awhile in the US.

It's possible, yes, but conversely, they might cease sooner.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Of course Nazi race policy would leak out. Some form of white supremacism is essential to Nazism IMO.

I meant the genocidal part. Not exactly something you'd want to boast to the world, after all. Especially when you're trying to make yourself look good.

"We slaught men, women, and children, but we give money to good causes!"

 

[Wendell]

I meant the genocidal part. Not exactly something you'd want to boast to the world, after all. Especially when you're trying to make yourself look good.

"We slaught men, women, and children, but we give money to good causes!"

Yes, it does look bad, particularly when said that way. They would say, "We are/were merely purifying our nation."

The Germans would also play up Hitler's observations on the Armenian genocide, as well as the fact that the "free" West did not do more to take in the groups Germany sought to remove.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Actually, I don't understand the idea that the U.S. will remain conservative towards racial issues, and engage in eugenics. It's the same thing as in "Making History." Unless they adopt a sort of Draka-esque competition with other would-be supermen, they're in a cold war with the Nazis- why would they support the same sort of policies central to their enemies' doctrine? Then again, during the cold war LBJ and other liberal presidents were able to pass through liberal measures, but welfare is a far thing from abolition of property.
And seeing as how relatively racially open-minded many politicians of both parties were in the '40s and '50s (FDR, Truman, Dewey, Eisenhower), I'm not sure that racially regressive ideas will be around for the kick-start of this hypothetical cold war.

 

[luakel]

I think eugenics et al will still be promoted because there won't be a Holocaust to show how disturbed the whole idea really is. At least that's what your POD made it sound like. And even if there is still a Holocaust, who says that the Nazis won't be able to cover the worst of it up? IMO, the German and Japanese experimentations in WWII played a big part in turning public opinion against eugenics.

 

[ninebucks]

I think that eugenics would probably continue. In Superpower politics you can't let your opponent have any advantages you don't have. If they are breeding supersoldiers, then you must breed supersoliders. If they develop a nuclear bomb, you must develop a nuclear bomb, etc.

 

[Grey Wolf]

The problem with a US-Nazi cold war is the uniquely infiltrative method of national socialism/fascism.

"I have sen fascism. And when it comes to America, it will be wrapped in an American flag and holding a bible."

Somebody I don't recal said that, and it has a strong piece of truth.

When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross. — Sinclair Lewis

According to a very brief and very quick Google search

The question is, who was he ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Calgacus]

When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross. — Sinclair Lewis

According to a very brief and very quick Google search

The question is, who was he ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Sinclair Lewis was a liberl journalist, who wrote a book called 'it can't happen here' about a fascist US.

The thing I find odd is the assumption that a Nazi Europe and the US would always indulge in a Cold War. Is there not at least some chance that they would not be bitter enemies??

 

[Dean_the_Young]

The thing I find odd is the assumption that a Nazi Europe and the US would always indulge in a Cold War. Is there not at least some chance that they would not be bitter enemies??

Two nuclear powers, each with regional dominance, both ideologically opposed? The "liberate and enlighten the masses" versus "get rid of that old stinking corpse of liberty"?

Two nuclear powers, not friends, both looking for world domination to protect their own interests?


Bet your a** their's going to be a Cold War.

 

[Max Sinister]

I once started a thread about this topic: [thread=35802]US politics in a "nazis win" TL[/thread]

 

[Strategos' Risk]

I think that eugenics would probably continue. In Superpower politics you can't let your opponent have any advantages you don't have. If they are breeding supersoldiers, then you must breed supersoliders. If they develop a nuclear bomb, you must develop a nuclear bomb, etc.

But did the U.S. mirror every single advantage that the Soviet Union pursued? Now that I think about it, they did do some things such as following the Space Race after Sputnik was launched, focusing on science and math education after the Soviets did that, and the like.