Dome of the Rock blown up April 1982

"some theoretical connection" :confused: ok so say it was Ulster Unionists, my guess no one would link the UK Government at all to it, and MI5 would drop on them like a ton of bricks, and that'd be enough for people, this being Israel and their being a odd different standard maybe this would be different, but I can't see, "sub group of lobbying organization that has links to governing party" being turned in a sane world as "Israel"

When the action in question is blowing up the third holiest site of a global religion in response to a proposed legal treaty involving Israel giving back land it won in a war, you can't see how this makes Islamists in the context of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the Iran-Iraq War go into straightforward attempts to forget about the USSR and target Israel? Are you really missing that this is much more than Egypt and Israel? Do you know anything at all about the global context of 1982? If you did, you'd see why this is a horrible idea for Israel for reasons that have jack shit to do with EGYPT. :mad:
 
my point stands, it wouldn't be a state action, Israel might take heat for failing to protect the Dome well enough, but thats not enough for war or any real attacks.

While it may not be a state action, there's something to consider here.

For one, how much tolerance did this group have in Israel prior to its destruction of the Dome of Rock?

Additionally, my point stands too. Destroying the Twin Towers was horrible, but is not on the scale of the Dome of the Rock. Here, the reason why is timing.

To provide another example, say if the United Kingdom was trying to gain peace with France after a recent war(pick one) but, in the middle of it, terrorists from the UK blew up the Effiel Tower. Even if they aren't connected with the UK government, it still blows their credibility because they can't control their own extremist elements.
 
my point stands, it wouldn't be a state action, Israel might take heat for failing to protect the Dome well enough, but thats not enough for war or any real attacks.

In the context of the Iran-Iraq War, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and the rise of the modern Islamist movements of the 21st Century, you really don't see this?

 
really really do not see it.

For God's sake, we're talking a war fought by armies intent on spreading radical Islamism, when they're actually kicking the ass of a secular dictatorship, intent on spreading regional terrorism. THE THIRD HOLIEST SITE IN ISLAM IS BLOWN UP. DURING THIS WAR. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan's already creating a hardened cadre of irregulars. And you really fail to see how blowing up the third holiest site in Islam might possibly relevant to the kind of people who sent teenagers through minefields over much less from an ISLAMIC POV?

Again,
Not_sure_if_serious.jpg
 
Sigh, I'm going to ask a very blunt question: you do realize that political Islamism of the terrorist variety, which is already fighting the Soviet Union at this time has fuck all to do with the Arab states and their desires or lack thereof at this time? Imagine how Ayatollah Khomeini reacts to this.....people really need to stop treating the Arabs as though they're all of Islam here. Blowing up the Dome of the Rock when Iran's armies are on an upswing in the Iran-Iraq War is going to be very, very bad regionally.

First of all, drop the tone. Second, we were talking about Arab states. Not Terror organizations. The reasoning that Israel couldn't stop the attack on the Dome is enough to never negotiate again, is flawed. That's like saying that Israel should resume hosilities with Egypt after the cross-border incidents.
 
For God's sake, we're talking a war fought by armies intent on spreading radical Islamism, when they're actually kicking the ass of a secular dictatorship, intent on spreading regional terrorism. THE THIRD HOLIEST SITE IN ISLAM IS BLOWN UP. DURING THIS WAR. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan's already creating a hardened cadre of irregulars. And you really fail to see how blowing up the third holiest site in Islam might possibly relevant to the kind of people who sent teenagers through minefields over much less from an ISLAMIC POV?

Again,
Not_sure_if_serious.jpg

there is no need to go nuts because some one doesn't agree, also mocking memes are childish and I hear not ok here, any ways, Iran will what teleport across the middle east? also I'm sorry but what happens in one part of the Muslim with some Muslims doesn't mean they're all doing it, Afghanistan was its own thing, based far more on what Afghanistan is like than what Islam is like, also Iran, Shi'ite, different than most of the Arab middle East that is Sunni and Arabs hate Iranians any ways, I'm not saying people won't be mad, I'm not saying lots of terrorism, but again I'm saying no State on State war, and you keep spinning off into crazy land not saying much of anything at all
 
Snake: Please stay away from the memes. They... don't end well.

BlackAngel: These are impacts that this will probably cause.

1. Middle East outright sanctioning Israel in regards to... anything.
2. Iran, once it can do so, declaring war on Israel.
3. Israel losing massive amounts of credibility on the international stage as it can't control extremist elements to prevent them from destroying the 3rd most holy site in Islam.

To switch this around, what if Al Quada had destroyed the Vatican instead of the Twin Towers? Do you really think Saudi Arabia, or for that matter various other Muslim countries, would be spared the wrath of Catholics globally? Heck, the world as a whole?

If you think so, you're severely underestimating the value of religious structures.
 
Snake: Please stay away from the memes. They... don't end well.

BlackAngel: These are impacts that this will probably cause.

1. Middle East outright sanctioning Israel in regards to... anything.
2. Iran, once it can do so, declaring war on Israel.
3. Israel losing massive amounts of credibility on the international stage as it can't control extremist elements to prevent them from destroying the 3rd most holy site in Islam.

To switch this around, what if Al Quada had destroyed the Vatican instead of the Twin Towers? Do you really think Saudi Arabia, or for that matter various other Muslim countries, would be spared the wrath of Catholics globally? Heck, the world as a whole?

If you think so, you're severely underestimating the value of religious structures.

1. don't disagree
2. unlikely they'll be able to any time soon, and publicly pushing the idea likely freaks out Sunnis and Arabs, Iranian Shi'ites as masters of the Dome is little better than Israelis, we might see earlier US or Saudi funding of Iraq
3. as noted before it is unlikely that they'd destroy the site, damage it yes, destroy it no, and again at the time nearly every nation had issues with terrorism, blaming a nation for what it's citizens do against the will of the state is unheard of and would open a truly epic can of worms for every nation dealing with terror, there might be rumbles at the UN about failing sure, but no massive Western attack politically on an issue that would blow back on them hard

I think you overestimate the value of religious structures, if that mattered so much Israel would have gone to war for the Wall and the Muslim world would be at war right now for the Dome.

also yes I think Saudi Arabia would be just fine if al-Qaeda leveled the Holy See on 9/11 killing every one inside, I think Western anti-Muslim/Arab feeling would be higher and some people would talk on the radio and on-line about war with the Saudis but nothing would come of it, war with Afghanistan would still happen, not Saudi Arabia
 
1. Middle East outright sanctioning Israel in regards to... anything.
2. Iran, once it can do so, declaring war on Israel.
3. Israel losing massive amounts of credibility on the international stage as it can't control extremist elements to prevent them from destroying the 3rd most holy site in Islam.

1. Probably. Though for how long?
2. How is this any different from OTL, with the exeption of it being a tad sooner?
3. Why lose cred? No one saw this coming, and you are ignoring Israeli police response to the event.
 
Snake: Please stay away from the memes. They... don't end well.
Why? It's literally right on the ball for what I was thinking too.

Sure, an oil crisis will probably pop up again. Sure, an intifada will start. But it won't stop there. It won't even begin to stop there.
 
Before we continue, how important is the Wall in Judaism? Is it the third most important?

I'm just gauging things before we continue.
 
Sure, an oil crisis will probably pop up again. Sure, an intifada will start. But it won't stop there. It won't even begin to stop there.

why? really all you guys keep saying is "The Dome is a big deal" there for Arab/Muslim states will drop all past thinking and logic and do... what you guys haven't clearly said, so give me something more logical than "Iran-Iraq peace based on Muslim unity!"

so what do you guys believe the nations around Israel will do? and why will they do these things?
 
1. Middle East outright sanctioning Israel in regards to... anything.
2. Iran, once it can do so, declaring war on Israel.
3. Israel losing massive amounts of credibility on the international stage as it can't control extremist elements to prevent them from destroying the 3rd most holy site in Islam.

Oh Hell no.

Israel provided a lot of assistance to the Iranians during the Iran-Iraq War and had been funneling arms to them since 1981. Iran isn't about to cut its unexpected friend loose for the sake of a declaration of war it cannot enforce.

Iraq had support from the USA and the USSR, Iran meanwhile was about to feel the burn from a US arms embargo so that it couldn't use the Shah's old weapons from the United States (it got bad to the point where Iran had to scavenge spare parts from their tanks to keep the air force going), and neither side has the logistical capabilities to do a push to Baghdad or a push to Tehran or whatever. Iran would need complete victory to be able to even consider a real war with Israel (or rather: an air war where the Iranians fly a few sorties over Israel and get blown out of the sky by Israeli pilots, unless Israel manages to screw the pooch enough to get into a war with historically pro-Iranian Syria, Iran is up the creek).

Basically, the Iran-Iraq War has a lot of reasons to bog down like it did IOTL and there are a few chances at the very start (like if the Khuzestani Arabs rise up like Saddam had wanted, which turns the war decisively in Iraq's favor) or towards the bitter end (American intervention against Iran for the Tanker War) for it to turn out clearly in someone's favor but those are few and far between, and quite unlikely.
 
Before we continue, how important is the Wall in Judaism? Is it the third most important?

I'm just gauging things before we continue.

it is the single most important site in all of Judaism, in the 19 years Jordan held it didn't let any Israelis go to it (though they agreed to) they also desecrated the Mount of Olives (the oldest Jewish grave yard on Earth over 3,000 years old) using its tombstones to pave roads and public bathrooms, also Jordan had agreed to let Israelis go there, Jordan blew up the synagogues of the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem and planed before 1967 to knock down the Quarter and make it a park, none of this lead to a war or attacks from Israel on Jordan or the wider Muslim world
 
why? really all you guys keep saying is "The Dome is a big deal" there for Arab/Muslim states will drop all past thinking and logic and do... what you guys haven't clearly said, so give me something more logical than "Iran-Iraq peace based on Muslim unity!"

so what do you guys believe the nations around Israel will do? and why will they do these things?

I think what Sneak and you are disagreeing on is the impact of blowing up the Dome.

In terms of the scale of impact, a American example would be some crazy white supremacists blow up the Lincoln Memorial. An attack to the Dome is perhap akin to declaring war to the religion of Islam, IMO.
 
Oh Hell no.

Israel provided a lot of assistance to the Iranians during the Iran-Iraq War and had been funneling arms to them since 1981. Iran isn't about to cut its unexpected friend loose for the sake of a declaration of war it cannot enforce.

Iraq had support from the USA and the USSR, Iran meanwhile was about to feel the burn from a US arms embargo so that it couldn't use the Shah's old weapons from the United States (it got bad to the point where Iran had to scavenge spare parts from their tanks to keep the air force going), and neither side has the logistical capabilities to do a push to Baghdad or a push to Tehran or whatever. Iran would need complete victory to be able to even consider a real war with Israel (or rather: an air war where the Iranians fly a few sorties over Israel and get blown out of the sky by Israeli pilots, unless Israel manages to screw the pooch enough to get into a war with historically pro-Iranian Syria, Iran is up the creek).

Basically, the Iran-Iraq War has a lot of reasons to bog down like it did IOTL and there are a few chances at the very start (like if the Khuzestani Arabs rise up like Saddam had wanted, which turns the war decisively in Iraq's favor) or towards the bitter end (American intervention against Iran for the Tanker War) for it to turn out clearly in someone's favor but those are few and far between, and quite unlikely.

Wow! I did say once it could do so. I didn't say immediately, that would be ludicrous.

it is the single most important site in all of Judaism, in the 19 years Jordan held it didn't let any Israelis go to it (though they agreed to) they also desecrated the Mount of Olives (the oldest Jewish grave yard on Earth over 3,000 years old) using its tombstones to pave roads and public bathrooms, also Jordan had agreed to let Israelis go there, Jordan blew up the synagogues of the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem and planed before 1967 to knock down the Quarter and make it a park, none of this lead to a war or attacks from Israel on Jordan or the wider Muslim world

1. This was clearly before the founding of Israel, as the West Wall is in Jerusalem.
2. Umm, Israel did go to war with Jordon.

But okay, I'll let Snake say what he wants with this, as I clearly can't contribute meaningfully for now.
 
I think what Sneak and you are disagreeing on is the impact of blowing up the Dome.

In terms of the scale of impact, a American example would be some crazy white supremacists blow up the Lincoln Memorial. An attack to the Dome is perhap akin to declaring war to the religion of Islam, IMO.

I don't think Islam and Muslims think with one mind, my stand is that the attack would wipe clean the whole context of the middle east and change the whole views of those governments around Israel, I think that such an attack could change the history of Islamic Terrorism, maybe we see Arab Mujahideen not going to Afghanistan, Osama bin Laden and others not fighting in Afghanistan, but in the West Bank and Lebanon, but maybe not, ObL hated than and latter secular socialist arabs like the PLO who in the 1980s were still out in front of the Palestinian issue.
 
1. This was clearly before the founding of Israel, as the West Wall is in Jerusalem.
2. Umm, Israel did go to war with Jordon.

But okay, I'll let Snake say what he wants with this, as I clearly can't contribute meaningfully for now.

it was during the first 19 years of Israel, part of the 1949 "peace" Jordan agreed to let Israelis go to the Wall and the Mount, Israelis were never able to go
yes they did, but not over issues of faith and holy sites, its not something most people go to war over
 
In terms of the scale of impact, a American example would be some crazy white supremacists blow up the Lincoln Memorial. An attack to the Dome is perhap akin to declaring war to the religion of Islam, IMO.

A decleration of war by a group of half a dozen guys, who would either die during the attack or captured right after? The OP did not say the state of Israel destroyed the Dome, rather a fringe group of religious nut-jobs.

1. This was clearly before the founding of Israel, as the West Wall is in Jerusalem.
2. Umm, Israel did go to war with Jordon.

1. East Jerusalem was taken by Jordan during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. During the 19 years prior to the six day war, what Black Angel wrote happened. This means that for 19 years, Israel did nothing, despite it all being done be the state of Jordan.
2. False. Israel went to war with Egypt and Syria in 1967. Jordan had joined the war at the request of Egypt and despite the urgings of Israel not to.
 
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