Dogger Bank War

What would happen if the British interviened in the Russo-Japanese war?

The Anglo-Japanese alliance stated that if Russia asked for help against the Japanese then Britain would have to come in on Japan's side. But if the Brits came in anyway would the Russians seek help? Their two main allies at the time were Germany and France. The French coming in is unlikely because of their close relationship with Britain. Germany is a maybe and a sensitive issue because they don't have much of a navy yet.

What would the British do in this case in terms of tactics, the Russians had a sizable presence in Manchuria but that was being slowly whittled away and Port Arthur had already fallen. The Japanese knew that on land they would be severely outnumbered and did pursue a land war. But with the help of the British what would they do then?

What would combat in the Baltic and North Sea be like? The British would have a clear superiority but what would they do specifically would they mount a siege of St. Petersburg or try an actual landing.

And please, no comments like "Russia gets raped" or things of that nature.
 
Well personally I don't think there would be war. The result would be simply that Russia backs down and the British let them. The British possibly restrain some of Japan's more extreme demands (while granting others) in the resulting treaty, with the result of perhaps souring that relationship. There may be revolution in St Petersburg, but its possible that there is a nationalist backlash against the British (and some belief victory was possible prior to their intervention) and as such revolutionary rhetoric is mild with regards to real change. There may be a surge in anti-Russian feeling in Britain.

I can't see any possible alternative. The RN can sweep the sea's clean of Russian ships with ease, further more she can blockade Russia without great difficulty. She can likely force the Baltic and proceed to shell St Petersburg, although I think a landing would be the height of folly and unlikely unless it was really believed the Russian government was on its last legs. A force could be sent to aid the Japanese, although its likely to be small and fairly inconsequential in the wider scheme of things. Even if the French were to intervene against Britain the result is surely the same, the RN stands triumphant and France is involved in a war which can serve no purpose but potentially lose her navy, merchant marine and perhaps even colonies.

All in all, for there to be war there has to be some belief on the Russian side that they can win something. There won't be. What after all can they do but submit to blockade and the ravages of naval gunnery? Some insane venture into India perhaps but that is doomed from the outset. There seems no reason to believe Russia's experience in the east should be better in this TL, and with the British openly backing the Japanese it might indeed be worse.
 
I can't see any possible alternative. The RN can sweep the sea's clean of Russian ships with ease, further more she can blockade Russia without great difficulty. She can likely force the Baltic and proceed to shell St Petersburg, although I think a landing would be the height of folly and unlikely unless it was really believed the Russian government was on its last legs. A force could be sent to aid the Japanese, although its likely to be small and fairly inconsequential in the wider scheme of things. Even if the French were to intervene against Britain the result is surely the same, the RN stands triumphant and France is involved in a war which can serve no purpose but potentially lose her navy, merchant marine and perhaps even colonies.

Blockade from what? They got no over seas colonies. Every thing they need has a land connection.
 
What would happen if the British interviened in the Russo-Japanese war?

The Anglo-Japanese alliance stated that if Russia asked for help against the Japanese then Britain would have to come in on Japan's side. But if the Brits came in anyway would the Russians seek help?

You must be reading the secret text of the treaty that wasn't even published or negotiated by the signers. The important parts of the text, at least according to wikipedia are:

Article 2: Declaration of neutrality if either signatory becomes involved in war through Article 1.

Article 3: Promise of support if either signatory becomes involved in war with more than one Power.

The treaty itself is aimed at giving pause to further Russian expansion into the Far East. The British are committed to neutrality, which they are by the terms of the 1902 treaty, which they followed to a T.
 
The Japanese didn't need any naval help as it turned out. The Royal Navy would have sunk the Russian fleet before it got any further South than the Bay of Biscay despite the stupidity of Admiral Beresford. They did get some help from Britain in the form of naval advisers but not active support.

Germany hasd no treaties but assisted in the revictualling of the Russian fleet and could have been drawn in if Britain had tried to interfere with this. The land war was more evenly matched and any British intervention by land could have taken some pressure of Japan but would have been difficult to implement other than via the Far East

In the event of it escalating to a world war Teddy Roosevelt would have stepped in earlier as an intermediary
 
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Anaxagoras

Banned
A 1902 war between the British and Russian Empires could see some trouble in Central Asia, where the British and Russian frontiers were only about twenty miles apart, albeit twenty miles of incredibly-difficult terrain. While British fears of a full-scale Russian invasion of India seem fanciful (didn't British generals understand logistics?), it doesn't seem impossible for the Russians to pay off some Afghan tribes to mount raids into the Northwest Frontier area.
 
A 1902 war between the British and Russian Empires could see some trouble in Central Asia, where the British and Russian frontiers were only about twenty miles apart, albeit twenty miles of incredibly-difficult terrain. While British fears of a full-scale Russian invasion of India seem fanciful (didn't British generals understand logistics?), it doesn't seem impossible for the Russians to pay off some Afghan tribes to mount raids into the Northwest Frontier area.

Yep, technically the frontiers were close but moving a serious army over central Asia would be a nigh-on impossible task.
The Victorians attitudes to the Russians were quite like those of the modern US and Islamic extremists; somewhat based on fact but exagerated like crazy.
 
Okay. So what about the international situation after the war? A severely weakened Russia would probably get support from Germany but what else. Would the French jump on the bandwagon and go with the British or what?
 
The only real support the Japanese need is financial. If the British government underwrite Japanese borrowing then the Japanese will be able to convert their gains on the battlefield into gains at the negotiating table.

This support would do much to endear the British to the Japanese, and with more investment required in Japanese Siberia, might reduce the Japanese desire to intervene in China.
 
Can't see the Russians fighting; can't see the French joining in because of Germany, unless the British were really up for a fight, which they weren't really, because short of destroying the Russian Baltic Fleet (and perhaps MN's Mediterranean fleet) they'd have little interest in a big land war with them, a repeat of the Crimea.

Can't see Germany fighting for Russia's status because that would alienate the British, who the Germans were quite keen on keeping as 'friends' outside of the misguided naval/colonial policy, and a Russian defeat would set back their development into a rival to Germany.
 
Blockade from what? They got no over seas colonies. Every thing they need has a land connection.

Erm.. a large amount of trade?
Sure I guess alot of it could enter Europe and then travel overland to Russia (or out to Europe in the case of exports), but it would add some stress to the Russian economy, at the very least all of her merchant marine would be lost or useless.
 

General Zod

Banned
It seems to me that the thread has failed to mention an obvious possibility: Germany might intervene, on the side of Britain. This would solidify the Anglo-German Alliance they have been seeking (bungling all the way) for years, and would give them a much-wished opportunity to cut the Russians down to size, before they modernize into an unstoppable jaggernaut. In 1904-5, Russia was no "ally" of germany, they had been allies of France for a decade. Germany would just love to fight Russia with Britain and Japan as allies, with a little meanuvering they can maneuver A-H and Italy into joining, with such a coalition a war with France and Russia is all but won.
 
But that would upset the balance of power, leaving Germany dominant on the Continent, which the British would not like.

IMO, only had France and Russia attacked Germany and threatened her destruction would the British step in to prevent this (outside of any Anglo-German alliance) because a franco-russian continent would be far more threatening, with both able to divert resources away from countering Germany to countering British imperial interests.

The Entente Cordiale was a juggling act hoping to maintain the peace with everyone, albeit a bit silly in hindsight given what it led to.
 

General Zod

Banned
But that would upset the balance of power, leaving Germany dominant on the Continent, which the British would not like.

Not that much of the chance to do otherwise, if the general European war erupts when the British-Russian clash unleashes it. Besides, the moment WWI erupts, the balance of power is already gone to Hell. What is going to happen, is that at the peace table, Britain shall try to restore some semblance of balance and pull weight to rein German claims against France (and let Germans get rather more of what they want from Russia, which they would care for much less, and regard as more dangerous), much like Britain did at Versailles to curb down the most extreme French demands against Germany (a pity that that dofus Wilson did not support them more on this, a lot of tragedy would have been avoided if he did).

In other words, if such a war happens, at the peace table the British shall let Germany make some moderate gain vs. France (e.g. annexing Luxemburg, or some bits from the rest of Lorraine), let Italy get their Nice & Savoy stuff, but mostly it shall be a land-grab of the French colonial empire. The British shall keep "balance" from happily getting the lion's share of the latter. ;)
Russia shall get the really tough, Brest-Litovsk peace deal, albeit some of the breakaway states shall get to be British, not German puppets.

Britain shall want to leave a cut-down France and Russia as counterbalance Germany to a level, and shall expand its own colonial empire to balance the gains of Germany (and its Austrian and Italian satellites). After the war, you shall get an uneasy Anglo-German partnership instead of an Anglo-French one.
 
Nothing will come out of the Dogger Bank incident since neither Britain nor France wanted war with each other. They were not going to allow their allies draw themselves in.
 
So your saying that Russia would go to Hell and Germany would have more to throw at France so they would win?

And about Earling's comment about a possible revolution. Do you think it would succeed? I think it might if the British actually did something. Especially if they shelled St Petersburg or the like. Would the same people lead the revolution as they did IOTL 1917?

And would the Japanese occupy Manchuria because of the Russian presence there.
 
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