Dogfight between Gloster Meteor and ME262

So what would happen if in WWII the Gloster Meteor (F.1) went up against the ME-262? They were both operational at the same time, but due to oversight orders they never met in battle as far as I know.

So my question is, what would have happened if they did meet, one-on-one, with equally experienced pilots and sighted each other at the same time (ie There is no advantage to either side apart from the aircraft's abilities)? How would the fight develop, who would win etc?

Thanks :)

Gloster_Meteor_F8%2C_UK_-_Air_Force_AN2059465.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_Meteor

Messerschmitt_Me_262A_at_the_National_Museum_of_the_USAF.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262
 
At work.

No means an expert but the Meteor's better throttle control should count for something.

The 262, by memory, needed rather delicate handling of her throttles so as to avoid engin problems (Flame outs, fires, that sort of thing)

That being said I think the 262's airform/aerodynamics gave her an edge in top speed snd handling.

I look forwards to those more knowledgeable's opines.


EDIT: Actually, I bet a link to a previous old discussion on the matter might also be forthcoming. :)

Cheers.
 
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Deleted member 94680

The fact the RAF saw fit to order their pilots not to engage the 262s probably has something to do with their relative capabilities. It can't all be down to simply not wanting to risk having a shot down Meteor recovered by the enemy?
 

Pangur

Donor
The fact the RAF saw fit to order their pilots not to engage the 262s probably has something to do with their relative capabilities. It can't all be down to simply not wanting to risk having a shot down Meteor recovered by the enemy?
Quite possibly the case however a dog fight between the two jets is most likely to be decided by the relative skill and experience of the pilots
 
The fact the RAF saw fit to order their pilots not to engage the 262s probably has something to do with their relative capabilities. It can't all be down to simply not wanting to risk having a shot down Meteor recovered by the enemy?

By that point the UK was already thinking about the post-war.

Didn’t want the Soviets getting their hands on a Meteor. A Meteor captured by the Germans was highly likely to wind up in Soviet hands eventually.
 
At work.

By that point the UK was already thinking about the post-war.

Didn’t want the Soviets getting their hands on a Meteor. A Meteor captured by the Germans was highly likely to wind up in Soviet hands eventually.

Which makes politics a strange bed fellow when you consider after war British governments simply handing such engines over......

Still, back on topic, how would Whittle's engines compare vs the Germans?

At the time wasn't the axial flow generating higher thrust and was more 'Robust' in their handling characteristics?

Cheers.
 
One issue the Me-262 has its its armament , the MK 108 was a very good bomber killer but its velocity is so low that hitting a Metor with it would take a miracle.
 
By that point the UK was already thinking about the post-war.

Didn’t want the Soviets getting their hands on a Meteor. A Meteor captured by the Germans was highly likely to wind up in Soviet hands eventually.
Politics! lol Always a fund and divisive topic - Don't get me started on Britexit!!!

I don't really care about politics in this instance however. I am more interested in the outcome of a hypothetical dogfight for something I am thinking about.

Thanks :)
 
At work.



Which makes politics a strange bed fellow when you consider after war British governments simply handing such engines over......

Still, back on topic, how would Whittle's engines compare vs the Germans?

At the time wasn't the axial flow generating higher thrust and was more 'Robust' in their handling characteristics?

Cheers.
Derwent 1 and Jumo 004 were both around 2000 lb. The Jumo was a less reliable engine in service , Germans just did not have the materials available so were having to use poorer metallurgy, and both , as Gen 1 turbojets , had surge/flameout issues.
 
Both F1 and F3 were deployed to Belgium, the F3 would stand a better chance than the F1. IIRC the F1 had 1700lb Power Jets W2 Welland engines whereas the F3s had 2000-2200lb Rolls Royce Derwents. Both had the short engine nacelles and long wings which limited speeds; I think 415mph for the F1 and 495mph for the F3.

I think in the end it would depend on the specific circumstances of the engagement, while the Me262 was faster its engines were far more temperamental so would have to be nursed the way a Meteor F3 wouldn't.

@Eternity the Meteor in the picture you posted would eat the Me262, it is a postwar F8. From the F4 the engine nacelles were lengthened to delay compressibility and drastically improve mach number, the wingtips were clipped and the engines were 34000lb Derwent MkVs which are basically cut-down Nenes, these would do over 600mph.
 
As others have said, the Me-262 has some significant nominal performance advantages over early model Meteors. So, over a few dozen idealized 'flight sim' fights (single aircraft, pilots of equal skill, no risk of technical failures, equal C3I support, 'a 'meeting engagement' type set up, etc. etc.) it's probably reasonable to expect something like a 60-40 split in favour of the '-262.

In the real world though material is often a secondary consideration to pilot skill, tactics, situational awareness and the 'dumb luck' of how the engagement starts...
 
++Snip++

@Eternity the Meteor in the picture you posted would eat the Me262, it is a postwar F8. From the F4 the engine nacelles were lengthened to delay compressibility and drastically improve mach number, the wingtips were clipped and the engines were 34000lb Derwent MkVs which are basically cut-down Nenes, these would do over 600mph.
Is it? Oh, my bad. That was the one on Wiki - I don't know much about them.
 
Is it? Oh, my bad. That was the one on Wiki - I don't know much about them.

Its a very niche subject studied by obsessed and angry people, like me! These days the jets are the only part of ww2 I find interesting.

I did have a scanned copy of a secret ww2 report that laid out the production schedule of the 200 F3s, the key to speed the long nacelles were not delivered before the war ended.
 
It wouldn't be a dogfight. Neither aircraft was good for real dogfighting.

The consequence of the above is that the winner, if there is one, is in all likelihood the one that starts in the advantageous position - behind the other. With pilots of similar skills, and starting from cruising speed, the aircraft that happens to have a bead on the other's tail will get that one critically important pass; the other pilot won't be able to maneuver away, and acceleration wasn't the strength of either plane, so he will probably not be able to just run away, either.

If that burst is on target, the firer is the winner (not saying that the target is shot down immediately; but if damaged, it will obviously try to disengage, and if the damage affects speed, then there will be a second and presumably definitive attack).

If it isn't, then both pilots will cautiously head for their bases. At this point, both jets have presumably reached their top speed, and the likelihood of the initially targeted aircraft being able to become the hunter is low.
 
One issue the Me-262 has its its armament , the MK 108 was a very good bomber killer but its velocity is so low that hitting a Metor with it would take a miracle.
Those heavy 30mm rounds had a tendency to break their ammo belts when subjected to high-G maneuvers, very likely to occur in a dogfight
 
Could an F3 disengage from an Me 262 given the latter's speed advantages? Perhaps the meatywhore could outclimb the 262?

Edit: the thrust to weight ratio of the 262 is about .28 and the F3 about. 33 so the meatywhore pilot probably should fight on the continuing climb.
 
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So what would happen if in WWII the Gloster Meteor (F.1) went up against the ME-262?
Depends on when the clash took place, as has already been mentioned both aircraft had various models which changed their performance.


Which makes politics a strange bed fellow when you consider after war British governments simply handing such engines over...
Well a British government, which was led by a different party than during the war*. Once the first shipment had been made and the damage done there wasn't really any point in limiting overseas sales then.

*Yes I know Labour was part of the Churchill war ministry.
 
From the F.4 the engine nacelles were lengthened to delay compressibility and drastically improve mach number, the wingtips were clipped and the engines were 3,500 lbf Derwent Mk.Vs which are basically cut-down Nenes, these would do over 600 mph.
It's a shame the final run of F.3s modified with the lengthened nacelles and clipped wings were too late to see service in Europe. Even without the Derwent Mk.V having some meet Me 262s and shoot them down would go a fair way to killing off some of the more ridiculously Napkinwaffe.
 
It's a shame the final run of F.3s modified with the lengthened nacelles and clipped wings were too late to see service in Europe. Even without the Derwent Mk.V having some meet Me 262s and shoot them down would go a fair way to killing off some of the more ridiculously Napkinwaffe.

Just the nacelles would allow the F3 to tangle with the Me262 and Ar234, even with Derwent III-IVs and long wings.
 
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