Does the absence of 9/11 really change anything significant?

Does the absence of 9/11 change anything significant?

  • Yes

    Votes: 210 86.4%
  • No

    Votes: 3 1.2%
  • Debatable

    Votes: 30 12.3%

  • Total voters
    243

mottajack

Banned
The entire world would be different, for sure. 9-11 led to Cheney / Rumsfeld Iraq war WMD fantasy, and the ensuing debacle in Iraq; in turn, this indirectly caused the Arab spring in 2011, and then the entire Syria debacle, ISIS screwing Al Quaeda, the later Madrid and London bombings, Paris manslaughter in 2015...

While the war in Afghanistan was justified since Bin Laden was there (and the talebans were butt crazy criminals) the Iraq war was justified on lies (WMD) and toppling Saddam, even if he was a criminal asshole, led to chaos in the country. Toppling Saddam was a good thing even for the wrong reasons BUT it was the aftermath that was a disaster. Don't forget ISIS was born out of Iraq weakness and chaos, in 2014. as much as Saddam was a criminal asshole (no question about that) at least he would have crushed ISIS like a rotten piece of shit.
 
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Well, assuming Iraq still happens but Afghanistan and a few small side jobs are butterflied away, over 2,400 US military personnel that would have died in Afghanistan might still be alive. Roughly 20,000 US personnel that have been injured to various extents in Afghanistan would not have been injured. Hundreds of thousands of US military personnel, civilian government personnel such as CIA, State Department, etc, would not have cycled through Afghanistan and been in combat operations over the last two decades. Some odd Specialist or Sergeant that was killed 10 or 15 years ago might be a Master Sergeant or Sergeant Major in a key leadership position. Some Captain or Major that was killed back in the early to mid 2000s might today be a Colonel or even a general officer, albeit perhaps only a Brigadier General or Major General.

Literally hundreds of billions of dollars might not have been spent in Afghanistan. This could be money that could still be lost in Iraq, or money that could end up elsewhere. A couple billion dollars extra here and there in a major armed conflict like Iraq or Afghanistan may not matter much. A couple billion extra dollars for NASA back in the 2000s decade could have a significant impact, OTOH.

Even if the money is still spent on military projects, it might be different then a warzone sinkhole. $10 billion not lost in the abyss of Afghanistan could buys dozens or possibly a few hundred new jets and helicopters, exact numbers might vary depending on the aircraft. That could be enough for the US Air Force to scrap several dozen old C model F-15 jets in exchange for several dozen extra F-22 jets. Or the Navy scrapping having several squadrons of F-18 Hornets trade in their legacy Hornets for Super Hornets some years early.

A lot of shows ranging from JAG to the various NCIS shows, to Family Guy to the various Law and Order franchises to countless other shows have either focused heavily on or had the odd one off episode or plot focusing on the War on Terror and the War in Afghanistan. No 9/11 and no Afghan War, a shitload of pop culture is changed.
 
Well, assuming Iraq still happens but Afghanistan and a few small side jobs are butterflied away, over 2,400 US military personnel that would have died in Afghanistan might still be alive. Roughly 20,000 US personnel that have been injured to various extents in Afghanistan would not have been injured. Hundreds of thousands of US military personnel, civilian government personnel such as CIA, State Department, etc, would not have cycled through Afghanistan and been in combat operations over the last two decades. Some odd Specialist or Sergeant that was killed 10 or 15 years ago might be a Master Sergeant or Sergeant Major in a key leadership position. Some Captain or Major that was killed back in the early to mid 2000s might today be a Colonel or even a general officer, albeit perhaps only a Brigadier General or Major General.

Literally hundreds of billions of dollars might not have been spent in Afghanistan. This could be money that could still be lost in Iraq, or money that could end up elsewhere. A couple billion dollars extra here and there in a major armed conflict like Iraq or Afghanistan may not matter much. A couple billion extra dollars for NASA back in the 2000s decade could have a significant impact, OTOH.

Even if the money is still spent on military projects, it might be different then a warzone sinkhole. $10 billion not lost in the abyss of Afghanistan could buys dozens or possibly a few hundred new jets and helicopters, exact numbers might vary depending on the aircraft. That could be enough for the US Air Force to scrap several dozen old C model F-15 jets in exchange for several dozen extra F-22 jets. Or the Navy scrapping having several squadrons of F-18 Hornets trade in their legacy Hornets for Super Hornets some years early.

A lot of shows ranging from JAG to the various NCIS shows, to Family Guy to the various Law and Order franchises to countless other shows have either focused heavily on or had the odd one off episode or plot focusing on the War on Terror and the War in Afghanistan. No 9/11 and no Afghan War, a shitload of pop culture is changed.

So would a non-9/11 American pop culture, or at least one without an attack of such scale, maintain continuity with the 1990s?
 
I'm sorry the entire world is dramatically different. The rampant islamaphobia that spread out from the US following 9/11 is likely butterflied. The perceived spectre of terrorism defined the world and its simply not there. The affects that will have on the politics of every country inconceivable.
Perhaps Russia would remain pro western as they are fighting terror.
 
9/11 is often seen as the single event that ended the good times of the 90s... all at once. If we assume that no 9/11 means no wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, then the end of the good times of the 90s will be a lot more spread out... a declining economy, growing income inequality, health care crisis, etc. Without the WoT, the media is likely to focus a lot more on these...
 
There’d be far fewer MRAP vehicles without Iraqi IED issues. I admit that’s petty minor.
 
People overestimate what dictators can do in the case of a popular revolt, you’d think that they can just kill them all, but it isn’t that easy.
I think one Libyan colonel can attest to that. The minute that Saddam starts killing people the US is gonna use it as a cassus beli against him.
Bing bada boom, Iraq ends up like Syria, Libya or Egypt.

Anyways Saddam can’t live forever and once he’s dead there’s almost guaranteed to be a bloody power struggle even if he manages to suppress revolts in 2011.
 
So would a non-9/11 American pop culture, or at least one without an attack of such scale, maintain continuity with the 1990s?

I think it would. Disaster movies were a hit in the late 90's and that all came to an end with 9/11. As someone who lived through the event there is a pretty clear distinction between the 90's and the post-9/11 cultural landscape. In the late 90's an alien invasion movie that caused millions of deaths could be comedic without being crass. The late 90's also have a post Cold War end of history feel as well. Often the only thing we have to fear is our own corrupt officials rather than outside threats. Even "The Siege" which predicted a lot of the post 9/11 culture still had the ring of 90's optimism

Another interesting thought is that should 9/11 be prevented and nothing of its scale hits the mainland OKC would remain the most deadly terror attack on American soil. I wonder what that would do to the growth of the far right especially combined with the lack of intense Islamophobia that 9/11 and the War on Terror ginned up.
 
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