Do you not see the path of the wind and the rain?

The Bitter Cold Snow: Rise of Llewellyn II -TL

Do you not see the path of the wind and the rain? Do you not see the oak trees in turmoil? Cold my heart in a fearful breast For the king, the oaken door of Aberffraw I have decided to abandon or merely postpone my Venetian timeline in favout of something closer to my heart and something i am very very interested in.

What if Llywelyn ap Gruffydd/Llywelyn Ein Llyw Olaf/Llewellyn The Last had managed to survive the batle of Orewin bridge and had managed to win that battle.

Several POD's will occur, instead of a dughter Gwenllian Llewellyn is given a male heir from ITL a marriage to the daughter of Edward I's rival Simon De Montford.
 
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In my opinion Welsh resistance to English invasion would have continued longer had Llywelyn II not been murdered in the woods near Cilmeri; a bloodier resistance, perhaps, but ultimately with the same result.

To have a surviving independent Wales entering the 14th and 15th centuries (Owain Glyndwr's short-lived principality notwithstanding), you'd need an earlier POD; a united England emerging from the ashes of Simon de Montfort's rebellion means that even a united Wales would struggle against the sais Zerg... I mean, overwhelming English numerical superiority.

Edward I of England needs to be less successful elsewhere (i.e. Scotland) for Llywelyn II to survive and maintain a Welsh kingdom to his natural death.

Would be interesting to see what you can do with this timeline. In what year is your initial POD?
 
Possibly the battle of Evesham because thats pretty much where the rebellions against Edward & the crown were put down.

Battle of Cadfan also is significant as it allowed Llew II to to expand and snatch a large chunk of English held land.

Another possible POD is that Longshanks went off on a crusade or two. And if with several historical tweaks this would allow the Scots & the Welsh to rebel better with obvious assistance from The English Barons.

Who knows an ATL William Wallace may come to Wales and Fight the English as I plan on Llew II living till he is much older.
 
Well a young wallace first of, as he would still be quite young during Llew II's reign as King of Gwynedd, so basically Wallace as a mercenary with any chance to gith the English allowed. And then using the experience to carve the English up and force them from Scotland.

Also by having lesser Welsh Nobles whose lands were ceded to Llewellyn II after Cadfan not lose control over their lands but be integrated more into the Gwynedd structure as as soon as Cadfan was over they felt displaced and so defected to the March Lords
 
So gfar my POD's are as follows -

-Llewellyn II lives longer but long enough to initiate proper reforms and create a sustaibnable rebellion.
-His daughter Gwenllian is born a male named Llewellyn II.
-Llewellyn III is betrothed to the daughter of Simon De Montford.
-De Montford is successful; at the battle of Evesham.
Whilst Edward Longshanks is off crusading the English marchships are overrun by combined Baronial(sp?) & Welsh forces.
-Scottish forces begin to move southwards in alliance with Llewellyn & DeMontford.


so far these are my POD's.
Any criticisms or advice?.

Any and all help is welcome
 
So gfar my POD's are as follows -

-Llewellyn II lives longer but long enough to initiate proper reforms and create a sustaibnable rebellion.
-His daughter Gwenllian is born a male named Llewellyn II.
-Llewellyn III is betrothed to the daughter of Simon De Montford.
-De Montford is successful; at the battle of Evesham.
Whilst Edward Longshanks is off crusading the English marchships are overrun by combined Baronial(sp?) & Welsh forces.
-Scottish forces begin to move southwards in alliance with Llewellyn & DeMontford.


so far these are my POD's.
Any criticisms or advice?.

Any and all help is welcome

One of the biggest problems the Welsh had was keeping together. They tended to divy up their principalities among various sons and/or fight against each other, rather than with each other against the Saesaneg (sp?).

Having a single Welsh leader that pulls things together for one generation doesn't really do any good in the long run...
 
One of the biggest problems the Welsh had was keeping together. They tended to divy up their principalities among various sons and/or fight against each other, rather than with each other against the Saesaneg (sp?).

Having a single Welsh leader that pulls things together for one generation doesn't really do any good in the long run...

that is my aim to chnage that with Llewellyn II and changing his daughter into a man at birth, that way a line of succession is created and whereas the welsh nobles were treated badly and they sied with the English for their own gain only because Llewellyn took their lands and gave them no control.

In this I intend to give him control but also let the welsh lords be de jure leaders.

And with Longshanks either crusading or losing ground in this TL it would provide a unifying if somehwat frail chance for the welsh to combat the saesneg/english.

Still trying too find events around the time of my original POD that would be a great factor in pushing English ambitions back.
 
Also another slight change to the POD.
llywellyn (been spelling it incorrectly) still marries simon de montfords daughter eleanor who is cousin of edward I and instead of producing the daughter Gwenllian they produce Llywellyn III which was what I had intended, just changing some details.
So basically a welsh prince of English noble and Welsh noble blood with claims over the lands of Wales and also the lands belonging to De Montford.

Any other help guys?
 
any medieval/dark ages people able to help
people with a knowledge of Britain at this time as I have a lot of thoughts and need help in finding out whether this may be ASB or not in regards to certain decisions
 
You will have to overcome the Welsh forces biggest problem - Wales. It is impossible to comunicate and concentrate a Welsh army because of the terrain.

This allowed the Marcher Lords to defeat the Welsh on many occassions in South and Central Wales. (Longshanks allways went to the North in the campaigns)

Allow them time to combine at Ludlow say, and you might have a chance. A quick suprise attack on Ludlow castle will give them the opening to Central England. A possible strategic central point where they can manouvre against the uncombined English forces, and defeat them in a piecemeal fashion.

Who knows, they could strike at Lancaster and York, and in doing so invite aid from the sweaty socks!
 
well my intention was to have the scots in the north strike at york occupying it and thus forcing english forces to split and put more effort into the scottish campaign whereas I intended to have the rebellions by welsh princes in the south, those whom had earlier allied with Longshanks to quickly mobilize and make great ground and capture more land of the marcher lords.

Also with better organization and more willing/less troublesome princes and family members i.e. Llywelyns brothers, a more stable fighting unit could and hopefully would emerge.

Coupled with this a surviving Simon DeMontford who was a close ally and his daughter was now welsh royalty, having him attack the Kings forces would provide a welsh fightback that would be more productive.

Im also trying to look at Cornish, Irish & possibly French relations with england at this time, pretty much im asusming not very good.
 
Im also trying to look at Cornish, Irish & possibly French relations with england at this time, pretty much im asusming not very good.

Cornwall was part of England... so yeah.

Ireland was divided between Hiberno-Norman lordships which the King of England claimed as the Lordship of Ireland, and various Gaelic kings and chiefs.

To make things a bit more confusing, there was a great deal of intermarriage between the two groups, and the Normans adopted a great deal of Irish culture, including language, weaponry and, to the shock of the proper English, trial marriages.

I'm not sure abut France, but I believe that the English king was still the ruler of a few French territories, just not sure which ones.
 
Cornwall was part of England... so yeah.

Ireland was divided between Hiberno-Norman lordships which the King of England claimed as the Lordship of Ireland, and various Gaelic kings and chiefs.

To make things a bit more confusing, there was a great deal of intermarriage between the two groups, and the Normans adopted a great deal of Irish culture, including language, weaponry and, to the shock of the proper English, trial marriages.

I'm not sure abut France, but I believe that the English king was still the ruler of a few French territories, just not sure which ones.


well even then Cornish people were Cornish despite being part of England.
The Irish though could also rebel in the style that Simon DeMontford did leading a barons alliance againts the English Monarchy.



I am thinking should I make Llywelyn II the POD and basis of this TL or possibly an earlier welsh leader, one before norman conquest? perhaps roman withdrawal onwards?
 
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well even then Cornish people were Cornish despite being part of England.

Yes, but they wasn't really anything equivalent to modern nationalism back then. They may have been different to their neighbors in Devon, but they were both still subject to the English king, and that's what's important. Which isn't to say that they wouldn't rebel, but to speak of 'Cornish relations wth England' is an anachronism.

The Irish though could also rebel in the style that Simon DeMontford did leading a barons alliance againts the English Monarchy.

Rebel against whom? Their own native kings, the highly assimilated Norman nobles or the English king, who, as I recall, had never really taken much interest in Ireland?

I am thinking should I make Llywelyn II the POD and basis of this TL or possibly an earlier welsh leader, one before norman conquest? perhaps roman withdrawal onwards?

That last would be basically an Arthurian TL. As such, I support it wholeheartedly.
 
EvolvedSaurian;2986069 That last would be basically an Arthurian TL. As such said:
then I plan on doing that then. Just need help with info and a suitable POD, possibly, the saxons dont invade? most obvious.
 
I think I will start from a POD where the Saxons invade and set up their kingdoms as per OTL but are eventually driven back by a resurgent welsh united front, having the northern Brythonic kingdom survive and have the Cornish lands not be subdued.

This TL also means as per OTL the Breton also flee and set up Brittany.

Just need to do some detailed stufy of the time following Saxon invasion etc and how best to create a solidified and stronger welsh allaince between these kingdoms versus the saxon threat.
 
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