BlondieBC
Banned
Yes, and this is why East Timor is critical. With East Timor, the Germans can move ships of all type to Tsingtao without the need of using neutral ports.
Dividing the Portuguese colonial empire
- Thread starter PariahNihil
- Start date
Yes, and this is why East Timor is critical. With East Timor, the Germans can move ships of all type to Tsingtao without the need of using neutral ports.
Flubber
Banned
Did you actually read, let alone comprehend, Ariosto's post?
He wrote about how Germany was willing to give up Tsingtao in return for gains in Africa. You first agree and then immediately bleat something about Timor being critical for refueling ships steaming to Tsingtao. If Germany trades Tsingtao for territory in Africa, why the hell would they need a refueling station in Timor?
This thread was genuinely interesting until your dippy U-boat thread, asinine pronouncements on European demographics, and other non sequitors intruded.
BlondieBC
Banned
Yes, I read his post. But he did not include any references, and I have not come across anyone sources that back his claim in my own reading. So I gave it the weight given to things one find one the internet with no support - very close to zero.
I agreed to the proposed WW1 gains being in Africa. And I agreed that Tsingtao as seen as giving Germany access to China.
In life, do you find you often persuade others to your viewpoint by being insulting?
Yes, but you forgot to mention you even wanted direct sources.
Germany's Aims in the First World War, by Fritz Fischer, serves as my principal source; while it concentrates on its namesake, it does detail their goals prior to that, including in Asia. The Reich had always sought a position in the Far East, but it was a matter of force projection rather than colonial expansion; this is why Tsiangto received the attention it did, being the one proper naval installation Germany could establish there, in addition to serving as a base to protect their interests in China.
However, this was always secondary to their ambitions in Africa, and by the First World War, the only ones actually pushing for Germany to maintain itself in the Pacific were the Industrialists who benefited from it. Timor itself was secondary to the prizes of Angola and Mozambique, and likely would have been sacrificed to expand the German zone in Angola, so that they might have direct access to Katanga.
Germany wanting Timor for naval bases is pretty valid point, considering that Germany (Titpitz) wanted Samoa for the same reasons (Naval bases), giving up claims to the Volta Delta in Africa in 1899.
http://books.google.com/books?id=08fRAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=Tirpitz+Samoa+Volta+Delta&source=bl&ots=y1Z2IJEAi7&sig=Y1vNdkZY8xGUjrKQAVnnCUE_7ps&hl=en&sa=X&ei=D4DQUJ__OsXs2QWi94CYAg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Tirpitz%20Samoa%20Volta%20Delta&f=false
Of course the Heligoland treaty 1890 is the same way (giving up African territory for bases). So there is a pattern.
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Despite the historical reality of the agreement not happening due to world war 1, its seems likely to happen without World War 1.
Advantages to Britain:
1) If Germany is satisfied with this, and is kept busy trying to colonize this vast area, and no longer has a chip on her shoulder about her place in the sun, and has no need to pursue large naval building projects, Britains peace and prosperity is ensured for the 20th century.
2) More colonial booty for Britain is gained too.
Disadvantages to Britain:
1) An ally is made mad, but Portugal is not a valuable ally any more.
2) Some muddying of her reputation, but the Boer war for example is in the not too distant past, so this is just one in the series of such things (and is this really a whole lot different than the USA looting the Spanish for colonies 1898).
3) A potential strong enemy has more colonial territory (but considering Britains naval preponderance, not so much a risk)
http://books.google.com/books?id=08fRAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=Tirpitz+Samoa+Volta+Delta&source=bl&ots=y1Z2IJEAi7&sig=Y1vNdkZY8xGUjrKQAVnnCUE_7ps&hl=en&sa=X&ei=D4DQUJ__OsXs2QWi94CYAg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Tirpitz%20Samoa%20Volta%20Delta&f=false
Of course the Heligoland treaty 1890 is the same way (giving up African territory for bases). So there is a pattern.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Despite the historical reality of the agreement not happening due to world war 1, its seems likely to happen without World War 1.
Advantages to Britain:
1) If Germany is satisfied with this, and is kept busy trying to colonize this vast area, and no longer has a chip on her shoulder about her place in the sun, and has no need to pursue large naval building projects, Britains peace and prosperity is ensured for the 20th century.
2) More colonial booty for Britain is gained too.
Disadvantages to Britain:
1) An ally is made mad, but Portugal is not a valuable ally any more.
2) Some muddying of her reputation, but the Boer war for example is in the not too distant past, so this is just one in the series of such things (and is this really a whole lot different than the USA looting the Spanish for colonies 1898).
3) A potential strong enemy has more colonial territory (but considering Britains naval preponderance, not so much a risk)
Flubber
Banned
You've got that exactly backwards.
Here's a quote from page 111 of the very same book you linked:
Your suggestions that receiving the Portuguese half of Timor will somehow mitigate Wilhelmine Germany's supposed inferiority complex or that gaining another large overseas possession will somehow lessen Germany's naval building programs border on the asinine.