Divergent Longitudes: an East-West swap scenario

[Whiteshore]

Speaking of the Ptolemies, how Christianity develops with Judea under Ptolemaic and not Roman rule would be quite interesting.

 

[VB.rainer]

Speaking of the Ptolemies, how Christianity develops with Judea under Ptolemaic and not Roman rule would be quite interesting.

I think we'd still see Jesus dead, since the idea of One True Capital-G God would threaten all polytheistic religions. Not to mention, considerin Akhenaten, Egypt would probably already have a poor opinion of monotheists. I don't really know how tolerant Ptolemaic Egypt was, but the Ptolemies were seen as foreigners at first, so maybe they'd accept jews? No idea here.

Though, I believe the aesthetics of christianity would change quite a bit. Early christianity took a lot of influence from Roman and Greek arts of the time. Here, assuming Egypt eventually converts or at least accepts them, you'd see something similar with christians appropriating the Egyptian style of art for their own religious artworks.

 

[WheelyWheelyLegsNoFeely]

I think we'd still see Jesus dead, since the idea of One True Capital-G God would threaten all polytheistic religions. Not to mention, considerin Akhenaten, Egypt would probably already have a poor opinion of monotheists. I don't really know how tolerant Ptolemaic Egypt was, but the Ptolemies were seen as foreigners at first, so maybe they'd accept jews? No idea here.

Though, I believe the aesthetics of christianity would change quite a bit. Early christianity took a lot of influence from Roman and Greek arts of the time. Here, assuming Egypt eventually converts or at least accepts them, you'd see something similar with christians appropriating the Egyptian style of art for their own religious artworks.

Egypt was basically Greek under the Ptolemies, so aesthetics would probably still be fairly Greek.

I don't see the fundamentals of Christianity changing between being formed under Roman rule versus Ptolemaic rule, but what would change is its spread due to the empire not uniting the Eastern Mediterranean. My thinking would be that it maintains a very strong presence in the Middle East for a while before being pushed out by local faiths, mirroring Buddhism being strong in northern India until being supplanted by Hinduism, and in the present having a varying amount of influence across Europe and West Asia, with some countries adopting state Christianity and others having Christianity as a prominent minority. The steppe probably becomes Christian just as the Mongols OTL became Buddhist, and you could probably see a Christian dynasty in Rome descended from them like the Mongol Yuan dynasty. My vote would be for the Magyars, but any of the western steppe tribes could fill that niche.

 

[Whiteshore]

The steppe probably becomes Christian just as the Mongols OTL became Buddhist, and you could probably see a Christian dynasty in Rome descended from them like the Mongol Yuan dynasty. My vote would be for the Magyars, but any of the western steppe tribes could fill that niche.

Who do you see being the Jurchen/Manchu equivalent, on that note? I was thinking of some sort of Slavs owing to how the Jurchens/Manchu, despite being influenced by steppe nomad peoples, were largely settled agricultural peoples.

 

[VB.rainer]

Who do you see being the Jurchen/Manchu equivalent, on that note? I was thinking of some sort of Slavs owing to how the Jurchens/Manchu, despite being influenced by steppe nomad peoples, were largely settled agricultural peoples.

If speaking purely in terms of "People who could conquer Rome like China," perhaps the Germans? They're the only ones other than Slavs that I think could feasibly fill that role (and would be pretty poetic). Maybe the Greeks or Carthaginians if they could gather the power to take over. Again, exact 1:1 counterparts are hard to find, so there may not be one at all.

Then again, the Germans were strong enough to destroy Rome, so some of them deciding to simply become the new heads of it wouldn't be totally out of the question.

 

[WheelyWheelyLegsNoFeely]

If speaking purely in terms of "People who could conquer Rome like China," perhaps the Germans? They're the only ones other than Slavs that I think could feasibly fill that role (and would be pretty poetic). Maybe the Greeks or Carthaginians if they could gather the power to take over. Again, exact 1:1 counterparts are hard to find, so there may not be one at all.

Then again, the Germans were strong enough to destroy Rome, so some of them deciding to simply become the new heads of it wouldn't be totally out of the question.

This is really thinking ahead, but if Britain becomes the Japan equivalent (which makes the most sense to me), then Germany would make for a much better Manchukuo equivalent than Russia since it’s just across the North Sea from the isles.

 

[shearsforest]

Turns out Augustus died around the time of the beginning of TTL's Han-equivalent; Tiberius is still alive, though, and could become emperor next. He's the husband of Caesar's daughter Julia.

 

[Aluma]

Will the Caesareans last much long though?
The Qin fell rather quickly in OTL and the Julio-Claudians didnt last that long either so I dont think things will lot very pretty to whoever is Caesar's heir
If there's a Han equivalent that is

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Who do you see being the Jurchen/Manchu equivalent, on that note? I was thinking of some sort of Slavs owing to how the Jurchens/Manchu

Eh, if even half of the Slavic expansion from OTL is still present here, Slavlands would be too dense and too populous to be reduced to some footnote of history like Manchus did with their country getting colonised by Chinese.

 

[shearsforest]

Will the Caesareans last much long though?
The Qin fell rather quickly in OTL and the Julio-Claudians didnt last that long either so I dont think things will lot very pretty to whoever is Caesar's heir
If there's a Han equivalent that is

I'm planning for the next heir to be Caesarion, placed onto the throne by advisors who wanted to keep their power (much like with Ying Huhai/Qin Er Shi). Although it is worth noting that Caesar is unnaturally old at this point (86 years old when he dies), so I may have to retcon him to have died either during the wars of conquest or shortly after.

What does everyone think?

 

[Aluma]

Well since you had him become insane already maybe he dies due to a (not so)vain atempt of achieving immortality?
Like not the classic mercury drinking, but perhaps - following what you said about him dying in his war of conquests - he tries to larp as Alexander to achieve the greek-roman version of immortality(historical "Glory" & Imperial Worship) through said conquests

 

[shearsforest]

Well since you had him become insane already maybe he dies due to a (not so)vain atempt of achieving immortality?
Like not the classic mercury drinking, but perhaps - following what you said about him dying in his war of conquests - he tries to larp as Alexander to achieve the greek-roman version of immortality(historical "Glory" & Imperial Worship) through said conquests

That'd be an interesting idea, having him pass away during his final campaigns in Dalmatia due to a Dacian/Illyrian ambush, leaving the empire in Caesarion's (or maybe even Octavian's) hands.

 

[Aluma]

Speaking of the princely devil Im personally excited at the prospect of a Qin Octavian if there is one in your story

You know, Im a simp~

 

[AltoRegnant]

i'm mostly interested in medieval/early modern stuff so i can't say much on antiquity, but i think that indian hegemons being equivalent to persia and turkey and the reason east Asia starts exploring makes the most sense

 

[Aluma]

i'm mostly interested in medieval/early modern stuff

So Im the Antiquity person and you the Medieval person? :O
Thats amazing! We're gonna pester Shears so much!

 

[shearsforest]

Nowhere; he'd probably go off and die (he was getting old) during his intended Parthian/Scythian campaigns.

The suggestion that he'd be made King of some Roman client-kingdom(s) is an interesting one, not sure how that'd work though.

Cleopatra was apparently pregnant at the time of his assassination; in this TL the baby would definitely survive (although it's possible that it did, and was a girl). Given Cleopatra's fertility it's likely she'd give him one or two more babies before his time on earth was up...No idea how Caesar surviving longer would affect their careers though.

Maybe he'd finally divorce Calpurnia and make Cleopatra a Roman citizen (like Herod and other client-kings)?

Alright, this one is an idea I've always been curious about;

Might Caesarion, son of Cleopatra VII and (likely) Gaius Julius Caesar, have a shot at getting the upper hand on Augustus and becoming Emperor himself? Would he even want to be Emperor of Rome? Would good ol' Octavian have to die from something else before he could succeed at it?

My thinking is, OTL, he was seen as a threat by Octavian, and tried to maintain Egyptian autonomy. Furthermore, he was of the Ptolemaic Dynasty, which means he was half-Roman and half-Greek, so I don't believe there would be any sort of issues coming from his ethnic background, although that overall wasn't too large an issue for Romans.

Now, I suppose the next question is, had he succeeded, what might he do differently than Augustus? How differently? Would the Empire be as we know it? How would Egypt fare in comparison to OTL? What would the Empire of Augustus Ptolemaeus Philopator Philomētor Caesar look like?

There is an awesome timeline on this topic called After Actium: Two Caesars Are Not Enough, by Velasco.

By all roman standards, no. It was just impossible and unacceptable. Caesarion would have been considered like an unroman half foreigner bastard son, barely more valuable than a son born from a former slave enfranchized.

The only credible way I see is some kind of substitution trick where Caesar would make people believe that Caesarion was born from his wife Calpurnia.

Caesar planned war against Dachia and Parthia just before his death so that would be first thing what would happen. Another thing is how wars would end. Caesar probably would win Dachians but not sure with Parthians.

Its especially hard considering that Caesarion, by virtue of his illegitimate birth, was not even a citizen. Thus, he quite likely would never have been able to use the Republican facade to take power.

Cleopatra was never going to be anything other than a client ruler of Egypt. The people of Rome would not accept her as Caesar's wife. As a result it is unlikely that Caesarion would have any chance of becoming Caesar's heir. So they stay in Egypt and live longer, but uneventful lives most likely.

I do not know much of the time period aside from the fundamental. But this means that Ptolemaic Egypt continues on as Caesarion will continue the dynasty, and it doesn't become a client state since there's no war with Antony since there is no reason for it of course

What happens with Octavian, barring his death he is still heir then

Some prior posts concerning Caesar and Caesarion.

I'm thinking of doing a massive retcon that goes as such:

After 23 years of fighting Rome, both Rome and Carthage are tired and decide to sign the Treaty of Lutatius, which dictates their sphere of influences in the Mediterranean. Carthage retains their colonies in Sicily and southernmost Iberia, while Rome is granted dominance over the territories north of Carthage.

For hundreds of years, this stable balance holds, thanks in part to a peaceful set of Roman and Carthaginian emperors who want to take their fighting elsewhere. By 44 BC, Rome holds the Italian peninsula, some land above Epirus, Massalia, Narbonia, and eastern Iberia, the last of which was conquered by Julius Caesar during the Hispanic Wars. Some senators get tired of his growing influence and plot to kill him.

Before the conspiratorial plot against him, Julius Caesar made plans to conquer Gaul and the rest of Iberia next. On the Ides of March, he nearly gets killed, but is not brain-damaged as a result. Instead, he sees his survival as a sign that he is favored by the gods to continue his plans. Days after the attack, he proclaims himself as Emperor Julian. He sleeps with Calpurnia, who gives birth to a boy 9 months later.

As usual, Julian completes his conquests. However, he grows more and more insane and goes past Gaul, completing a series of daring conquests in Illyria to try and cement himself as an Alexander-like figure in Roman history. One of these daring conquests ultimately ends his life; it is likely he had a stroke, but legends have him being elevated to Mount Olympus.

His son, Caesar Veturius, is favored by some advisors in Julius Caesar's court over his adopted brother Octavian, and is put into power. Less than a year after being put on the throne, Emperor Veturian ends up being killed trying to complete his father's expeditions in Dalmatia, and Rome collapses, with numerous generals taking hold of different areas. The war eventually boils down to a conflict between Sextus Pompey and Octavian. The latter kills the younger Pompey and conquers the rest of the Empire by 24 BC, establishing himself as Emperor Augustus, and beginning the Augustine dynasty of Roman history.

 

[Deleted member 165942]

Some prior posts concerning Caesar and Caesarion.

I'm thinking of doing a massive retcon that goes as such:

Before the conspiratorial plot against him, Julius Caesar made plans to conquer Gaul and the rest of Iberia next. On the Ides of March, he nearly gets killed, but is not brain-damaged as a result. Instead, he sees his survival as a sign that he is favored by the gods to continue his plans. Days after the attack, he sleeps with Calpurnia, who gives birth to a boy 9 months later.

As usual, Caesar completes his conquests. However, he grows more and more insane and goes past Gaul, completing a series of daring conquests in Illyria to try and cement himself as an Alexander-like figure in Roman history. One of these daring conquests ultimately ends his life; something something heart attack/stroke something something legend.

His son, Caesar _______, is favored by some advisors in the elder Caesar's court over Octavian, and is put into power. Less than a year after being put on the throne, the younger Caesar ends up being killed trying to complete his father's expeditions in Dalmatia, and Rome collapses, with numerous generals taking hold of different areas. One of these generals, Octavian, conquers the rest of the Empire by 24 BC, establishing himself as Augustus, and beginning the Augustine dynasty of Roman history.

So I assume that the Augustine Dynasty is the Han Dynasty analogue, a successful Dynasty that ruled many centuries started by a capable general but over the decades the excesses causes it to collapse and Rome's Three Kingdom period happens.

 

[VB.rainer]

Before the conspiratorial plot against him, Julius Caesar made plans to conquer Gaul and the rest of Iberia next. On the Ides of March, he nearly gets killed, but is not brain-damaged as a result. Instead, he sees his survival as a sign that he is favored by the gods to continue his plans. Days after the attack, he sleeps with Calpurnia, who gives birth to a boy 9 months later.

As usual, Caesar completes his conquests. However, he grows more and more insane and goes past Gaul, completing a series of daring conquests in Illyria to try and cement himself as an Alexander-like figure in Roman history. One of these daring conquests ultimately ends his life; something something heart attack/stroke something something legend.

His son, Caesar _______, is favored by some advisors in the elder Caesar's court over Octavian, and is put into power. Less than a year after being put on the throne, the younger Caesar ends up being killed trying to complete his father's expeditions in Dalmatia, and Rome collapses, with numerous generals taking hold of different areas. One of these generals, Octavian, conquers the rest of the Empire by 24 BC, establishing himself as Augustus, and beginning the Augustine dynasty of Roman history.

This feels a bit more plausible than the entirety of roman history from here on out being under Caesar's descendants. Caesar would essentially be an Emperor Qin like figure who's dynasty led for an incredibly short time, but left massive impacts on the empire for centuries to come.

 

[Umbric Man]

I do find it an interesting twist we have a Caesarian AND Augustine Dynasty alike in this Rome's history.

 

[Aluma]

I feel like with a King Caesar it makes more sense to have him brain damaged

He may have joked about it, but no roman in their right mind at that point in time would proclaim themselves king(just think of someone doing so in modern day America)
Dictator? Fair game, Princeps? Awesome
King however is bad period and only works with a insane Caesar who crushed his enemies

Putting Caesarion on the throne afterwards is nothing unexpect, a "filthy unroman"? Yes, but for a guy that proclaimed himself king thats yesterday

So it makes sense

It also does that immediately after Caesar's death all of that shit would come crashing down against his "son" and those puppeting him much like it did after Qin Shi Huang died

As for the Han analogue being estabilished by Augustus, it can make sense but Im not sure if it works that well

Liu Biang in our timeline was formerly peasant tasked with holding prisoners and when someone inevitably escaped he was sentenced to death, which prompted his popular rebellion(not a socialist revolution or anything like that, but it still had a populist character to it) that led to him taking the crown and "re-founding" China
He also crowned his father Emperor afterwards to not have him bowing to him, later reminding his children in his death bed of his humble origins

Octavian IOTL did have ties with the plebeans, but nonethless made sure he and his family were among the most prestigious families in Rome and later, through his adoption, THE most prestigious
You could get being seen as a plebeian leader if he never receives the adoption and later is sentenced to death by the "False Caesar", prompting a rebellion of his with populist undertones

However I dont think he's the type of guy who would speak fondly of his poor past or crown his dad as an equal, he feels more like a Xiang Yu type of character in my opinion
Which doesnt mean he doesnt work, he does! And still would be awesome

But if there was some other famous guy sentenced to death in Rome that was known for being humble could have led a rebellion against Caesarion I think it'd be even more accurate