But we're back to why Russia even declares, Russia can't help America and needlessly antagonizes the British in the process. Why declare war? Russia has much, much more immediate problems with France, Austria, Prussia and the Ottomans rather than a war half a world away over something that doesn't concern Russia in the slightest.
Divergence of States
- Thread starter MittleGittle
- Start date
“Joining” would better describe it more, like a series of battles between the colonies.
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How? It was plenty rich in furs because they hadn't been hunted out yet and was just as wealthy in gold and silver.
A population boom in the wildlife, gold and silver can stay the same.
In 1861, the south secedes from the Union, but doesn’t declare war. What happens next?
How so? A plague which kills American Indians will likely mean they stop burning the land to smoke out game/encourage ideal plants for gathering. Look at the Willamette Valley where the Kalapuyans and Chinookans died en masse of smallpox, measles, and especially malaria, and new-growth forest overtook their land (once controlled by constant burning) which altered the animals available to hunt. It's very difficult to boost the numbers of fur-bearing animals since that affects the ecology of the region (i.e. predators, plant growth, etc.).
And such a development is very relevant to the American Indians of the region since it affects their relations with the Europeans. OTL Russia provoked wars against the Aleuts and especially the Tlingits.
Richer furs is going to make groups like the Haida and other groups reached first by the maritime fur trade even stronger, although even OTL they were strong enough against the Coast Salish (the usual victims of raids). On the other hand, more European activity between Russia and maybe Spain will help spread potatoes in the Amerindians of the PNW earlier than OTL which should buff them.
I don't think it will buff the Russians much outside of Alaska since their colony in California is still close to Spanish lands and at the mercy of the Pomoans.
Good points, I’ll change that. The maps are almost done, and will be here soon, maybe Saturday.
1750- A Russian merchant vessel is blown off course to California, they claim it for Russia and name it “Novyy Kavkaz”.
1802- Britain sells Rupertsland to America.
1812- Russia signs a peace treaty and non-aggression pact with Napoleonic France.
1813- Russia “joins” America in the war of 1812, but it’s more of a colonial struggle.
1815- Spain joins the side of Britain in the war of 1812.
1815- America and Russia win. America annexes Florida and Louisiana, along with Bermuda and parts of the NWT along the 50th parallel to Oregon. Russia annexes most of Nevada.
1835- First Spanish-American war.
1837- America wins and annexes Texas and occupies Cuba.
1846- Second Spanish-American war.
1848- America wins and annexes the New Mexico Territory.
1861- The CSA declares independence, but doesn’t declare war.
1862- Mexico declares ware on the CSA in an attempt to reclaim their lost territory.
1862- America declares war on the CSA.
1865- the CSA surrenders and is annexed by America.
1885- America annexes Novyy Kavkaz.
1896- Third Spanish-American war. Mexico joins.
1898- America wins and Annexes Puerto Rico and installs puppet states in the Philippines and Cuba. They annex Galveston from Mexico, along with a very small portion of Baja California.
1914- France declares war on Austria-Hungary.
1914- Germany declares war on France and Belgium.
1914- Britain declares war on the Central powers. Russia joins the war on the side of the Central Powers.
1915- America and Japan join the war on the side of the Entente.
1917- The Soviet Union begins it’s revolution in Russia, Russia exits the war.
1917- Germany and the Ottomans invade Russia to restore order.
1918- Germany annexes Poland and puppets the Baltic States, Belarus, and Ukraine.
1918- Germany surrenders.
1918- the treaty of Vichy is signed. The British west coast and Rupertsland split Alyaska, Britain acquire Tanzania, Togo, New Bismarck, and Namibia from Germany. France Annexes Alsace-Loraine from Germany, and acquires Kamerun. Poland is released with it’s OTL borders. Austria-Hungary is resolved into OTL’s nations. Italy annexes South Tyrol, Istria, and Zara. Serbia annexes OTL lands. The Rhineland in Demilitarized.
1927- Russia surrenders to the Soviet Union. The SU annexes Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus.
OTL is the same from here on.
Please point out anything.
1802- Britain sells Rupertsland to America.
1812- Russia signs a peace treaty and non-aggression pact with Napoleonic France.
1813- Russia “joins” America in the war of 1812, but it’s more of a colonial struggle.
1815- Spain joins the side of Britain in the war of 1812.
1815- America and Russia win. America annexes Florida and Louisiana, along with Bermuda and parts of the NWT along the 50th parallel to Oregon. Russia annexes most of Nevada.
1835- First Spanish-American war.
1837- America wins and annexes Texas and occupies Cuba.
1846- Second Spanish-American war.
1848- America wins and annexes the New Mexico Territory.
1861- The CSA declares independence, but doesn’t declare war.
1862- Mexico declares ware on the CSA in an attempt to reclaim their lost territory.
1862- America declares war on the CSA.
1865- the CSA surrenders and is annexed by America.
1885- America annexes Novyy Kavkaz.
1896- Third Spanish-American war. Mexico joins.
1898- America wins and Annexes Puerto Rico and installs puppet states in the Philippines and Cuba. They annex Galveston from Mexico, along with a very small portion of Baja California.
1914- France declares war on Austria-Hungary.
1914- Germany declares war on France and Belgium.
1914- Britain declares war on the Central powers. Russia joins the war on the side of the Central Powers.
1915- America and Japan join the war on the side of the Entente.
1917- The Soviet Union begins it’s revolution in Russia, Russia exits the war.
1917- Germany and the Ottomans invade Russia to restore order.
1918- Germany annexes Poland and puppets the Baltic States, Belarus, and Ukraine.
1918- Germany surrenders.
1918- the treaty of Vichy is signed. The British west coast and Rupertsland split Alyaska, Britain acquire Tanzania, Togo, New Bismarck, and Namibia from Germany. France Annexes Alsace-Loraine from Germany, and acquires Kamerun. Poland is released with it’s OTL borders. Austria-Hungary is resolved into OTL’s nations. Italy annexes South Tyrol, Istria, and Zara. Serbia annexes OTL lands. The Rhineland in Demilitarized.
1927- Russia surrenders to the Soviet Union. The SU annexes Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus.
OTL is the same from here on.
Please point out anything.
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This is earlier than OTL Russia claimed Alaska, so any Russian claim is as ephemeral as Britain's Nova Albion. They can only enforce their claim with enough forts and men on the ground, and at that point Spain is the European power with the most control (although true control belongs to the American Indians)
More Russians at that date will likely translate to more guns for the Haida, Tlingits, and other groups they'd trade with in that area, and ideally an early potato introduction (although IIRC that was from the Spanish). Spain might have a shock when the California Indians have far more guns than they think.
Why should they, since it's producing plenty of fur? And why does the US want it since the US already has plenty of fur in their own lands and would rather buy (or god forbid conquer) the Louisiana Territory from France?
The UK would never give away Bermuda without a serious defeat since it's an integral part of the Royal Navy's infrastructure. The most the US can get is the Bahamas and Turks and Caicos and maybe British Virgin Islands.
Russia has basically no power projection in Nevada and they wouldn't even want it (almost no furs and the mineral resources are unknown), they'd just want more of California like lands south of Fort Ross. At this point they run into the real problem of religion since most settlements are full of Catholics, Catholic priests, and missionised Indians who would be difficult for the Orthodox Russians to deal with (as they'll have problems setting up missions as they did OTL in Alaska). Odds are there will be pro-Catholic uprisings on the part of the Californios and Russian opponents like the British (who were an important force in Mexican California OTL) which will probably smash Russia, and all Russia really has is their very limited military force in the Americas and Indian allies (like the Aleuts) who certainly can't protect Russian interests in California.
American control over Oregon is pretty much nominal, the real power is in the hands of the Indians there who in turn are supplied by groups like the HBC who can cheat the treaty. And since the Indians there don't obey lines on the map (as OTL with many Salishan groups divided by the international border), the HBC and others groups can supply the Indians to deal with American operations there and also help them out.
I don't think Spain is suffering these major defeats and not having the secession of their Latin American territories.
War is inevitable since at some point the US will rightfully exert their rights of taxation over them and the CSA will oppose that with violence, and like OTL the US call for troops against the CSA which will provoke a crisis in border states like Virginia and Tennessee and likely result in their secession (and the creation of Unionist enclaves in West Virginia and East Tennessee) and thus the American Civil War occurs.
Really, by this time I think the British would've grabbed it all during the Crimean War since unlike OTL Alaska, this would include lands they have a huge interest in like the Fraser Delta, Vancouver Island, the Columbia River, and San Francisco Bay. And they'd grab Alaska with it. OTL, the British had a ton of interests in California (they were pretty much second to the Americans in Mexican California--something like half of California's non-Indian population in 1848 were Anglo-Americans, split between British and Americans) and of course had plenty of interests in Oregon Country and what is now modern Washington State and BC thanks to the HBC and their Indian allies.
They were in no position to thanks to the French intervention, and even if the Hapsburgs weren't there, Mexico would've had yet another civil war or military coup that would've let the CSA protect Texas. The biggest lost would've been their New Mexico/Arizona campaign (it basically won't happen, which will affect the career of Kit Carson in the Civil War and also the infamous John Chivington of Colorado, murderer of the Cheyenne Indians at Sand Creek), and a lot of Texas CSA units defending against Mexico (and likely more against the Comanche which is interesting given their resurgence during the Civil War).
How and why? I think a Russian territory in the Pacific Northwest (or basically everything north of the Bay Area) would be pretty well-settled by Americans and British (as Russia is a literal world away, across very nice Siberian lands to settle in). If it's an annexation, it's probably a partition. It can easily be a buffer state, like basically California north of the Bay Area/Central Valley and most all of Oregon, Washington, BC, Yukon, and Alaska, although I think the US will take the land south of the Columbia River and Britain north of the Columbia River.
No way is Mexico keeping Galveston that long since Anglo influence and their own inability to hold Texas would inevitably result in a successful Texas Revolution and US annexation. And why "a very small portion of Baja California", almost all of Baja California was empty until the mid-20th century, the US would have no reason not to grab it.
A Polish puppet state was in the works since Austria-Hungary would never allow Germany to take all of Poland and the Poles themselves would want something out of the effort they spent toward the war.
How long did that take you to write?
How about this for America gaining Rupertsland? After the Seven Years War, New France is integrated into the Thirteen Colonies, which is renamed into North New England; they integrate New England and Labrador. The split between North and South New England is along the Mason-Dixon line.
Timeline V2
1750- A Russian merchant vessel is blown off course to California, they claim it for Russia and name it “Novyy Kavkaz”.
1752- Fort Russ is built and settled.
1767- North and South New England rebel and gain independence.
1771- The Americas Unite.
1812- Russia signs a peace treaty and non-aggression pact with Napoleonic France.
1812- Latin American Wars of Independence.
1813- Russia “joins” America in the war of 1812, but it’s more of a colonial struggle.
1815- Spain joins the side of Britain in the war of 1812.
1815- America and Russia win. America annexes Florida and Louisiana, along with the Northern Bahama's and parts of the NWT along the 50th parallel to Oregon. Russia annexes the rest of California.
1835- First Spanish-American war.
1837- America wins and annexes Texas and occupies Cuba.
1846- Second Spanish-American war.
1848- America wins and annexes the New Mexico Territory.
1856- Alyaska is split between the NWT and the British West Coast after the Crimean War.
1861- The CSA declares independence, but doesn’t declare war.
1862- America declares war on the CSA.
1865- the CSA surrenders and is annexed by America.
1885- America purchases Gadsden from Mexico, along with Baja California.
1896- Third Spanish-American war.
1898- America wins and Annexes Puerto Rico and installed puppet states in the Philippines and Cuba.
1914- Franz Ferdinand is assassinated, A-H declares war on Serbia.
1914- France declares war on Austria-Hungary.
1914- Germany declares war on France and Belgium.
1914- Britain declares war on the Central powers. Russia joins the war on the side of the Central Powers.
1915- America and Japan join the war on the side of the Entente.
1917- The Soviet Union begins it’s revolution in Russia, Russia exits the war.
1917- Germany and the Ottomans invade Russia to restore order.
1918- Germany annexes Western Poland and puppets the Baltic States, Belarus, Eastern Poland and Ukraine.
1918- Poland revolts against Germany.
1918- Germany surrenders.
1918- The treaty of Vichy is signed. Its like OTL Treaty of Versailles.
1927- Russia surrenders to the Soviet Union. The SU annexes Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus.
OTL is mostly the same from here on.
1750- A Russian merchant vessel is blown off course to California, they claim it for Russia and name it “Novyy Kavkaz”.
1752- Fort Russ is built and settled.
1767- North and South New England rebel and gain independence.
1771- The Americas Unite.
1812- Russia signs a peace treaty and non-aggression pact with Napoleonic France.
1812- Latin American Wars of Independence.
1813- Russia “joins” America in the war of 1812, but it’s more of a colonial struggle.
1815- Spain joins the side of Britain in the war of 1812.
1815- America and Russia win. America annexes Florida and Louisiana, along with the Northern Bahama's and parts of the NWT along the 50th parallel to Oregon. Russia annexes the rest of California.
1835- First Spanish-American war.
1837- America wins and annexes Texas and occupies Cuba.
1846- Second Spanish-American war.
1848- America wins and annexes the New Mexico Territory.
1856- Alyaska is split between the NWT and the British West Coast after the Crimean War.
1861- The CSA declares independence, but doesn’t declare war.
1862- America declares war on the CSA.
1865- the CSA surrenders and is annexed by America.
1885- America purchases Gadsden from Mexico, along with Baja California.
1896- Third Spanish-American war.
1898- America wins and Annexes Puerto Rico and installed puppet states in the Philippines and Cuba.
1914- Franz Ferdinand is assassinated, A-H declares war on Serbia.
1914- France declares war on Austria-Hungary.
1914- Germany declares war on France and Belgium.
1914- Britain declares war on the Central powers. Russia joins the war on the side of the Central Powers.
1915- America and Japan join the war on the side of the Entente.
1917- The Soviet Union begins it’s revolution in Russia, Russia exits the war.
1917- Germany and the Ottomans invade Russia to restore order.
1918- Germany annexes Western Poland and puppets the Baltic States, Belarus, Eastern Poland and Ukraine.
1918- Poland revolts against Germany.
1918- Germany surrenders.
1918- The treaty of Vichy is signed. Its like OTL Treaty of Versailles.
1927- Russia surrenders to the Soviet Union. The SU annexes Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus.
OTL is mostly the same from here on.
Timeline V3, In Depth
In 1750, a Russian merchant vessel bound for Alyaska is blown off-course to California, the captain claimed the land and named it “Novyy Kavkaz” (New Caucasia).
1752, The Russian Colony of Novyy Kavkaz is established in the North Bay area of San Francisco.
In 1763, the Treaty of Paris is signed, it is the same as in our timeline. The British then combine the newly gained New France with New England and Newfoundland. Then they give the Northern half of the 13 Colonies to New England, the line is along the northernmost part of the Mason-Dixon Line, then the south is called New Cornwall.
1767, the New England and New Cornwall revolt due to Overtaxation, and gain their independence.
1800, The now free New England and New Cornwall unite into the United States.
1812, the War of 1812 begins after the English blockade of Napoleonic France hurts American trade.
1812, Napoleon and Aleksandr I sign a Peace Treaty and Non-Aggression pact.
1813, Russia’s colonies of Alyaska and Novyy Kavkaz declare war on the British West Coast and Rupertsland.
1815, Spain joins the side of Britain.
1815, Latin American wars of Independence, Spain manages to hold on the Mexico, Florida, Arizona and Texas.
1815, America wins and Annexes Florida and Louisiana and occupies Cuba from Spain, and annexes the Bahamas from Britain. Novyy Kavkaz annexes the rest of California.
1835, America declares war on Spain after a crisis over the occupation of Cuba results in a Spanish blockade.
1837, America wins and annexes Cuba and Texas.
1846, Border clashes in Arizona lead to the Second Spanish-American war.
1848, Spain loses and America annexes Arizona, Mexico gains its independence along with Central America.
1856, Alyaska is split between the BWC and Rupertsland after victory in the Crimean War.
1861, the Southern States declare independence and break away from the Union.
1862, the US and the CS begin the American Civil War.
1865, The CS loses and is annexed by the US.
1885, The US purchases Gadsden and Baja California from Mexico and Novyy Kavkaz from Russia.
1896, The US declares war on Spain after the USS Maine is sunk.
1898, The US wins once again and Puppets the Philippines and annexes the Dominican.
History is the same from here.
In 1750, a Russian merchant vessel bound for Alyaska is blown off-course to California, the captain claimed the land and named it “Novyy Kavkaz” (New Caucasia).
1752, The Russian Colony of Novyy Kavkaz is established in the North Bay area of San Francisco.
In 1763, the Treaty of Paris is signed, it is the same as in our timeline. The British then combine the newly gained New France with New England and Newfoundland. Then they give the Northern half of the 13 Colonies to New England, the line is along the northernmost part of the Mason-Dixon Line, then the south is called New Cornwall.
1767, the New England and New Cornwall revolt due to Overtaxation, and gain their independence.
1800, The now free New England and New Cornwall unite into the United States.
1812, the War of 1812 begins after the English blockade of Napoleonic France hurts American trade.
1812, Napoleon and Aleksandr I sign a Peace Treaty and Non-Aggression pact.
1813, Russia’s colonies of Alyaska and Novyy Kavkaz declare war on the British West Coast and Rupertsland.
1815, Spain joins the side of Britain.
1815, Latin American wars of Independence, Spain manages to hold on the Mexico, Florida, Arizona and Texas.
1815, America wins and Annexes Florida and Louisiana and occupies Cuba from Spain, and annexes the Bahamas from Britain. Novyy Kavkaz annexes the rest of California.
1835, America declares war on Spain after a crisis over the occupation of Cuba results in a Spanish blockade.
1837, America wins and annexes Cuba and Texas.
1846, Border clashes in Arizona lead to the Second Spanish-American war.
1848, Spain loses and America annexes Arizona, Mexico gains its independence along with Central America.
1856, Alyaska is split between the BWC and Rupertsland after victory in the Crimean War.
1861, the Southern States declare independence and break away from the Union.
1862, the US and the CS begin the American Civil War.
1865, The CS loses and is annexed by the US.
1885, The US purchases Gadsden and Baja California from Mexico and Novyy Kavkaz from Russia.
1896, The US declares war on Spain after the USS Maine is sunk.
1898, The US wins once again and Puppets the Philippines and annexes the Dominican.
History is the same from here.
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Sorry, I’m having trouble understanding this, could you elaborate a little?