Disunited States Planning Thread

I assume you meant "The Course of Human Events"? ;) Good TL, that was. :)
Link please?
Someone please explain what a "filibuster nation" is.

Also, what would the political structure of the various countries look like? The Constitution of Virginia would probably be written by Jefferson and Madison. Hamilton (and Franklin) would probably write that of the AR. Adams would at least have a large role in drafting that of New England. And IDK about Carolina.
Would any of the countries have electoral presidential voting? How would they appoint congressional districts? Would any of the new countries preserve the divisions of the former states?

Oh, and who should lead Carolina? John Rutledge? One of the Pinckneys?
 
Link please?
Someone please explain what a "filibuster nation" is.
When a whole bunch of foreigners, often somewhat supported by the nation they come from, come to a nation and take it over. It often happened in Latina America, with some americans, such as William Walker, coming and taking the country.
 
I like most of what I've been reading so far. a couple of things though. First of All Vermont was already an Independent country at this time. Before the revolution Ethan Allen and his brothers were fighting what was basically a guerralla war with New York over the control of Vermont. Of course having land grants to millions of acres of Vermont had nothing to do with that.
 
Link please?
Someone please explain what a "filibuster nation" is.

Also, what would the political structure of the various countries look like? The Constitution of Virginia would probably be written by Jefferson and Madison. Hamilton (and Franklin) would probably write that of the AR. Adams would at least have a large role in drafting that of New England. And IDK about Carolina.
Would any of the countries have electoral presidential voting? How would they appoint congressional districts? Would any of the new countries preserve the divisions of the former states?

Oh, and who should lead Carolina? John Rutledge? One of the Pinckneys?

A filibuster nation would be when a group of people go off, conquer a scrap of land, and declare it a nation. Texas, The Bear Flag Republic, and even Nicaragua are examples, as were Burrs efforts to forge a nation out west - given the interior of the continent is not in American hands we may see more of them.

The Commonwealth of Virginia would likely operate much like the state does, if only on a federal level. Look over the Virginia Constitution to get an idea - powerful Governor, bicameral legislature, large legal system. Maybe add in a few bits about national policy, and eliminate slavery in due time, but aside from that Virginia has a good blueprint.
 
Maybe. Perhaps Transcendentalism could become the "American religion"? I welcome other suggestions.


Okay, but the Europeans will lose power (and lose the territories to independence movements) after the Napoleonic Wars (they will still happen, but differently).


I agree with you here, except I'm pretty sure NYC won't be separated from NY state. New England will probably build a powerful navy as well.

Concur with a New England Navy, but I think New York will want to avoid playing second fiddle to Philadelphia that early in the foundation of the nation. Boston would be a capital but New York City would be the financial hub and probably gain more, especially as Long Island, Staten Island, and Manhattan Island would arguably be bones of contention. Having NYC be a border town for NE seemed to solve those issues.

Okay, I am planning for the American Republic to encompass NY, PA, NJ, Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois, but they would probably face competition from the British in settling Michigan and Wisconsin.

Depends on how fast the British settle the area and who the American bring in. If the British are slow about it then things fall as OTL but even if there is more British settlement those lands are technically not theirs, the AR would have a stronger claim.

The two main powers on the East Coast are the AR and Virginia, and each of them have designs on Maryland, but neither wants the other to get it, so it will probably remain as a buffer state.

Maryland will probably join Philadelphia given the proximity and desire *not* to be part of Virginia. The Potomac is a natural boundary while the Susquehanna is too close and goes too deeply into Pennsylvania for that to work.

Sounds about right, except maybe for the partition of NC. Virginia will be one of the principal powers in Eastern North America.

I really could not think of a better way to partition the Carolinas without using the existing boundary

Wouldn't there also be Louisianan settlement in Mississippi?

Early on yes but as the populations expand further west there will be more and more English-speaking settlement of those areas as well. If South Carolina and Georgia separate then they might be fairly aggressive in establishing a presence.

Somehow, I don't (a Republic of the Great Lakes) happening. However, you never know!

If Philadelphia ignores the trans-Ohio populations long enough they will probably decide they can do better on their own. And until about 1850 or so transportation into that area, especially if the Ohio river is divided, could prove very difficult.

Yes, but from where will the settlers come? Louisiana? Carolina? Virginia? Texas will probably have borders similar to all the land they claimed after OTL Mexican-American War (All of Texas, and parts of eastern New Mexico to Santa Fe, and a bit of Colorado)

Texas could easily be settled by Southerners and second sons or just about anyone else looking for fresh land and a better life. Maybe it gets an influx of settlers from all over who put aside former loyalties and unite against a common (Mexican) enemy. A fragile Republic of Texas might end up becoming a UK protectorate in time or develop an even more wild/wooly culture than OTL

So this is basically Oregon? Yeah, I'm planning for it to be a British Dominion. Naming it Albion is an interesting idea.

Oregon + Washington + Idaho + British Columbia +/- Alaska, yes.

But who would settle it? Anglos? Mexicans? Japanese? British? If Japan modernizes soon enough, I can see them taking Hawaii and maybe a some of the California coast.

See proposed settlement for Texas. Lots of open land, timber, resources. Lots of settlers looking for a place to call home.

How would it be settled, though? I don't see much settlement beyond the Mississippi and other rivers. And without a coast, they're in a bit of trouble.

First by settlers in the Upper South and Great Lakes, then by river traffic from Louisiana. Again, populations eventually feel neglected, they likely secede. This area could also end up as part of the Republic of the Great Lakes but then that gives them a major industrial core and significant agricultural resources...

I'm thinking more of a border on the Ohio River. Once they enter through the Cumberland Pass, Virginians will be focusing on Kentucky. Meanwhile, the Pennsylvanians already have people living west of the mountains, and can quickly move soldiers up to the Ohio river. The British might take advantage of the conflict to move into northern Michigan and Wisconsin

Virginia and the AR need not come to blows immediately. There are plenty of opportunities for settlement and expansion in the beginning. Where you could get into trouble is the Falls of the Ohio, whoever controls it basically can tax river traffic and be default controls that section of the river.

I doubt the North Carolinians would like that :rolleyes: Maybe there would be a plebiscite? If Virginia is occupied with trying to settle in Kentucky and fighting Pennsylvania, SC could send envoys to Raleigh and convince them to join with SC and Georgia.

Perhaps, though the pull of Virginia will be strong and if NC follows Richmond I am not sure that SC and Georgia can survive alone

You raise valid points, but in this TL, Virginia and the AR are bitter enemies, and you don't want your enemy gaining more territory that borders you, do you? Virginia may dominate Maryland economically, but it will remain independent, at least for now. (Think of an American Belgium)

Maybe Maryland is the reason the AR and Virginia are such enemies, the AR controls its land but VA controls its economy and now wants the land. They despise each other but do not act immediately, allowing settlement of the Old Northwest and Ohio/Tennessee River Valley before open warfare erupts. Maybe VA deploys the M1819 Hall Rifle and becomes the first nation to use crude breech-loading rifles in warfare?
 
or maybe they found a Jewish state somewhere in the nice and vacant middle of the Continent - I once saw a TL for a Jewish Utah, might be nice to see a second swing

I guess my idea should be its own timeline, it might require a POD in the mid-colonial age, not after the revolution.
 
I like most of what I've been reading so far. a couple of things though. First of All Vermont was already an Independent country at this time. Before the revolution Ethan Allen and his brothers were fighting what was basically a guerralla war with New York over the control of Vermont. Of course having land grants to millions of acres of Vermont had nothing to do with that.
Vermont wouldn't be able to survive as an independent republic with a huge, powerful NY next door. (And Allen died in 1789 (Though this may be butterflied away))

Concur with a New England Navy, but I think New York will want to avoid playing second fiddle to Philadelphia that early in the foundation of the nation. Boston would be a capital but New York City would be the financial hub and probably gain more, especially as Long Island, Staten Island, and Manhattan Island would arguably be bones of contention. Having NYC be a border town for NE seemed to solve those issues.
I'm thinking that New York may have been considered as a possible capital to the AR, but the Pennsylvanians wanted a capital at Philadelphia as a condition of joining. Or maybe they'll make a NJ city the capital!:p

Depends on how fast the British settle the area and who the American bring in. If the British are slow about it then things fall as OTL but even if there is more British settlement those lands are technically not theirs, the AR would have a stronger claim.
If it comes down to whoever can move troops and settlers into the area fastest, the AR would probably have the advantage. However, would they want to make an enemy of Britain? (And would fighting in the Great Lakes be enough to cause that?) Maybe, if Britain takes Michigan and Wisconsin, the AR could buy them.

Maryland will probably join Philadelphia given the proximity and desire *not* to be part of Virginia. The Potomac is a natural boundary while the Susquehanna is too close and goes too deeply into Pennsylvania for that to work.
The northern border of Maryland would be the Mason-Dixon line. America expresses a desire to annex Maryland, but the Virginian Ambassador warns that this would be seen as a declaration of war.
Also, remember that, as a slave state, Maryland might not want to join the AR.

I really could not think of a better way to partition the Carolinas without using the existing boundary
Maybe later, NC will be partitioned among Carolina and Virginia. Partitioning a state you're trying to get to join your country doesn't seem like a way to get their goodwill.

Early on yes but as the populations expand further west there will be more and more English-speaking settlement of those areas as well. If South Carolina and Georgia separate then they might be fairly aggressive in establishing a presence.
Yeah, for a while I toyed with the idea of Mississippi becoming a puppet republic of Carolina. It will probably remain semi-wild for several decades at least.

If Philadelphia ignores the trans-Ohio populations long enough they will probably decide they can do better on their own. And until about 1850 or so transportation into that area, especially if the Ohio river is divided, could prove very difficult.
NY has ports on the Great Lakes, so there would at least be effective water transport there.


Texas could easily be settled by Southerners and second sons or just about anyone else looking for fresh land and a better life. Maybe it gets an influx of settlers from all over who put aside former loyalties and unite against a common (Mexican) enemy. A fragile Republic of Texas might end up becoming a UK protectorate in time or develop an even more wild/wooly culture than OTL
I'm just thinking that they'll have to travel through the largely uninhabited lands of upper Louisiana, which still have a sizeable Native American population (unless they travel by sea).

Oregon + Washington + Idaho + British Columbia +/- Alaska, yes.
This is what was known as "Oregon Territory," so that's what I meant.

First by settlers in the Upper South and Great Lakes, then by river traffic from Louisiana. Again, populations eventually feel neglected, they likely secede. This area could also end up as part of the Republic of the Great Lakes but then that gives them a major industrial core and significant agricultural resources...
Somewhat like an independent Missouri+Iowa+Kansas+etc? Likely depends if the AR or Louisiana can hold on to St. Louis for a while.

Virginia and the AR need not come to blows immediately. There are plenty of opportunities for settlement and expansion in the beginning. Where you could get into trouble is the Falls of the Ohio, whoever controls it basically can tax river traffic and be default controls that section of the river.
The Ohio river seems like a natural boundary, though both Virginia and the AR desire territory on the other side.

Perhaps, though the pull of Virginia will be strong and if NC follows Richmond I am not sure that SC and Georgia can survive alone
They would still survive, just as a very weak nation.

Maybe Maryland is the reason the AR and Virginia are such enemies, the AR controls its land but VA controls its economy and now wants the land. They despise each other but do not act immediately, allowing settlement of the Old Northwest and Ohio/Tennessee River Valley before open warfare erupts.
Well, the war over the Ohio valley is one of the primary blows that kills the Articles of Confederation. I'm not sure how soon it would happen, though. Probably before 1800.

Maybe VA deploys the M1819 Hall Rifle and becomes the first nation to use crude breech-loading rifles in warfare?
Who invented that? IIRC, he was from New England.

Question: Would the War of 1812 happen (possibly in a different year), and if so, what would it be like?
Also, I know NE is where the Revolution broke out, but is their anti-British feeling likely to fade within a decade or so, making them close trade partners with Britain?
 
One other idea to consider in regards to your United States - Western Pennsylvania was itself very under-populated in this era, so filling that up will be as big a role as colonizing Ohio.
 
Also New York State will be seen as very different from New York City (the politics between the two are very different, upstate NY is much more conservative than the City), the Hudson might serve as a natural border between New England and the AR. Also, without the Erie Canal being built, even if the AR gets NY state their ports will have trouble getting goods to market.
 
One other idea to consider in regards to your United States - Western Pennsylvania was itself very under-populated in this era, so filling that up will be as big a role as colonizing Ohio.
Good point. How did the US OTL encourage western settlement? And what demographics at first?

Also New York State will be seen as very different from New York City (the politics between the two are very different, upstate NY is much more conservative than the City), the Hudson might serve as a natural border between New England and the AR. Also, without the Erie Canal being built, even if the AR gets NY state their ports will have trouble getting goods to market.
Why wouldn't the Erie Canal be built? The AR would want to stimulate trade, and might build a canal across Pennsylvania as well (IDK about the geography).
I just can't see NYC leaving NY State. The city would probably want to remain as a counterweight to upstate NY conservatism in the American Congress.

Would any of the former states be preserved in the new countries? (With their own governors, legislators, etc.) And if so, would new states have the same structure when admitted?
Would any of the new nations have a parliamentary system (maybe by the mid-19th century)?
 
Why wouldn't the Erie Canal be built? The AR would want to stimulate trade, and might build a canal across Pennsylvania as well (IDK about the geography).
I just can't see NYC leaving NY State. The city would probably want to remain as a counterweight to upstate NY conservatism in the American Congress.
?

Erie canal was largely built by New York state iotl. This AR would probably be even more interested in one.

As for a PA canal. HA. Good luck with that. New York has, in the Hudson and Mohawk vallies an absolutely un parallelled opportunity for building a canal. No crazy elevation changes, a path already built by nature through the adirondacks.

IF the Brits build an ocean shipping canal (much cheaper transport) on the st laurence, preempting the erie, thered be no point in building the erie. And chunks of upstate new york and lake shore ohio would fall into the british economic sphere. If they dont, the Erie can bind the AR interior to the coast.
 
What about the debts the American States incurred from the War of Independence? Would those be paid? If anyone knows where the most debts were accumulated, please tell me.
What would the Napoleonic Wars (and the War of 1812) be like? Would any of the North American nations side with either Britain or France? (Other than Louisiana and Canada)
Looking further ahead, what do you think would happen with Bolivar, San Martin, and others in South America?
 
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