Disunited Germany

[anotherlurker]

Maybe Lippe-Detmolians would not emerge (but some microstates could develop national identity-look at Luxemburg or Liechtenstein) but Saxons or Bavarians are more likely, it's why I've said that better solution to keep Germany disunited is 5-7 medium sized countries instead of 400, also about independence of german states-in situation I described with strong France and PLC it would be "controlled independence", something simillar to status of soviet puppet states after ww2. France, PLC and Austria would be guarantors of German monarchs rule ( just like USSR was guarantor of communist parties rule in Eastern Europe) and would intervene if "old order" is threatened by revolutionaries, wanting unification.

if PLC is strong enough, russia might seek security like france did with north italy, slowly set up a big enough counterweight counterweight.

the venetians were not exactly thrilled about joining italy, so the bavarians might not be thrilled about joining a russian client state either.

 

[Whanztastic]

Did a quick sketch of what I imagine a late POD divided Germany may look like, result of alt-Austro-Prussian War.

 

[oshron]

EDIT: looks like Whanz beat me to this

i decided to draw up a hypothetical map of what this disunited Germany could look like, working mostly on what Whanztastic posted before. this map goes on the supposition that Austria-Hungary borders it mostly along the SGC and Saxony (and assumes that it would have parts of Silesia) and France on the west in a Napoleonic victory scenario, supposing at France annexes German territory west of the Rhine. the countries shown here are:

• Baden (light brown)
• Denmark (turquoise): included just to show its new borders in relation to the German states; Denmark wouldn't be considered a German state here
• Hanover (light green)
• Prussia/Prussia-Brandenburg (dark blue): includes Danzig because of geographic proximity, but may well be its own city-state or belong to something else
• Saxony (dark green)
• South German Confederation/Bavaria-Wurtemmburg (light blue)
• Westphalia (?) (yellow): in this incarnation, its supposed to be something of a rump state, possible of the Confederation of the Rhine, and thus lacks some territory that it has in Whanztastic's description

the red indicates and area that i originally attributed to eastern Hanover but, upon closer inspection, decided wasn't part of it; i'm tempted to give this to Prussia, but it may well belong to something else or be its own state


one thing that i wonder about would be the central area between west Hanover, Wesphalia, the SGC, Saxony, and Prussia. would/could some other state exist here? would it belong to some other country, or be divvied up between a few different ones? much like the area indicated in red, i'm tempted to give it to Prussia

 

[Simon]

The Kingdom of Hanover remains and gains Oldenburg and Holstein, while Schleswig is returned to Denmark.

I won't speak to the others but I'm fairly sure that the ruling family of Oldenburg was pretty closely related to the Russian Tsars, so they might have something to say about it. Even if they don't get Oldenburg, picking up the Free Imperial cities of Hamburg and Bremen and their exclaves plus inheriting the Duchy of Brunswick a short while later as they were meant to to finally form one contiguous whole would be pretty good going.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

About my scenario with surviving PLC: I think that unification would be even less likely if some of German states still are in personal union with other countries, for example Saxony with Poland-Lithuania, Hannover with Britain, just like being in union with Hungary prevented Austria from leading unification (even to bigger degree-Austria at least was stronger partner in union).

 

[Whanztastic]

About my scenario with surviving PLC: I think that unification would be even less likely if some of German states still are in personal union with other countries, for example Saxony with Poland-Lithuania, Hannover with Britain, just like being in union with Hungary prevented Austria from leading unification (even to bigger degree-Austria at least was stronger partner in union).

That is a good point... If we had a King Victor instead of Queen Victoria (probably wouldn't be the name, I know) Hanover would still be firmly in the British sphere. Would that alone be enough to stop German unification?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

That is a good point... If we had a King Victor instead of Queen Victoria (probably wouldn't be the name, I know) Hanover would still be firmly in the British sphere. Would that alone be enough to stop German unification?

She was named in honour of Tsar Alexander, Alexandrina Victoria, as requested by the King. so Yes, Alexander Victor is entirely possible, but since they usually had several other names in the full name...like William or Frederick and even George might be in there somewhere...so one of them might be adopted as the Regnal name.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

My proposition of POD:
Elisabeth of Russia lived much longer than in OTL so Russia didn't switch sides in Seven Years War, Prussia collapsed. Ducal Prussia was taken by Russians who exchanged it with Poland-Lithuania for Courland and eastern Belarus, Silesia went to Austria with exception of strip in northern part given to Saxons to give Saxony common border with PLC. Sweden regained Pomerania. Hohenzollerns lost royal title and everything they saved was Brandenburg. Now PLC has much higher chance to survive-without double-dealing prussian promise of alliance and with Wettin king residing in Dresden there are low chances for something like Third May Constitution which irritated Russia so much in OTL, so PLC survived until revolutionary wars as russian vassal and instead radical constitution slow reforms tolerable for Petersburg continued. Let's say some Napoleonesque figure emerged (POD is before Nappy's birth so he may be butterflyed)-now Russians are forced to allow rearmament of PLC if they don't want French revolutionaries to conquer Poland. At the same time alter-Napoleon created new kingdoms and duchies in Germany, so number of German states decreased. After alternate Congress of Vienna new order in Germany is estabilished:
-large or medium sized kingdoms: Hanover (which is enlarged-Rhineland is added to it so there are no more mess of microstates in Western Germany)-in personal union with Great Britain, Saxony (containing Thuringia also) in personal union with PLC, Bavaria, Baden, Wurtemberg, Mecklemburg and Brandenburg.
-Pomerania stays in Swedish hands, Schleswig in Danish.
Lack of Prussia forced Brits to find new ally in Europe to counterbalance Russia (Hannover is sword against France), ideal candidates are Austria and... Poland-Lithuania, there is only one problem-russian domination in Poland, but this probleam is solvable-after revolutionary wars army of PLC was rebuild, With secret aid of british intelligence Poles started uprising around 1830, something like enlarged November uprising with support of Austria and Saxony (OTL Russia had problem with uprising started by tiny Congress Kingdom, ATL they faced several times larger PLC, plus Saxony and Austria (and british diplomatic support) as result Poland-Lituania is no longer in russian sphere. It is how system of alliance in Europe looks now:
-Austria, PLC-Saxony and Hannover are british allies against France (Hannover, Austria) and Russia (PLC-Saxony, Austria) PLC is good ally for Austria, 17th century showed it.
-France and Russia become allies (both of them have interests against London)
Now German unification is totally screwed:
-Hannover in personal union with Britain, Saxony with PLC-so PLC and Britain against unification.
-France, despite being in another camp is natural enemy of unification especially if led by Austria, but I think they would try back Bavaria agains Habsburgs.
-Sweden and Danemar for obvious reason are against too.
-Austria is unable to unite German-is too much concentrated in Balkan/Hungarian region, but is able to stap attemps of unification by other states.
I think it is perfect situation to keep Germany disunited, almost everyone have interest to prevent it including the most important players of Europe.
German revolutionaries have to deal with Britain, France, PLC, Austria, Sweden and Danemark, not to mention conservative forces inside German states.

 

[kasumigenx]

Or better yet, Silesia is guaranteed to the Wettins in the War of Austrian Succession then the Wittelsbach and Wettins defeat the Habsburg Lorraine forcing them to Hungary, then Silesia is reattached to Poland when the Wettins rule Poland while Austria and Bohemia are given to the Wittelsbachs.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

Austria and Bohemia are given to the Wittelsbachs.

Then you have big chance for unification of Germany by Wittelsbachs.

 

[kasumigenx]

Then you have big chance for unification of Germany by Wittelsbachs.

Yes and no...if Prussia gets defeated later by a Wittelsbach-Saxony alliance later on Saxony would get all of Lusatia and Saxony and Hanover would be like knives that prevent German unification and if ever there is a unification it would be 2 way one North Germany and one South Germany.