If the Vandals play their cards right, their descendants despite being Romanized could very well remain influential just as the descendants of the Normans do in modern-day Britain. I don't forsee that. Vandals are more likely to be swamped and destroyed by the Berbers.
How do you imagine the Vandal's should play their cards for their descendants wo have a similar standing in their soceities as the Norman's descendants in OTL.

The Vandalic language was seldom spoken by the time that they were conquered by Belisarius and Justinian. You underestimate the allure of Roman civilization to the Vandals. They didn't want to destroy Roman culture in Africa but to adopt it and make it their own.
The Vandals did inherit and learn alot from the Romans that is true. The Vandals had beem Roman foederati in Pannonia before fleeing west. Roman customes, roman ideology, roman hobbies, roman names.

"There, the conclusions were mainly that these peoples adapted and integrated themselves so well to the Roman culture and way of life that they often quickly could not be distinguished from the original Roman population anymore. Thus hardly any words of the Visigothic language can be found in Spanish anymore nowadays, and the only word in Burgundian that we can really be sure of is their name. The Vandals, on the other hand, also seem to have assimilated their Roman subjects' ways, but only to a certain extent. They seem to have continued to distinguish themselves from the surrounding Roman elite by their social standing, marked by their possession of land in the sortes Vanadalorum, their language and their names (p. 94). Thus, the Vandals did not completely turn into Romans, but how much did they do so and how far did they remain Vandals? Do I have to imagine now a Vandal like a Vandal before their migration to North Africa, as a Roman aristocrat, or as something in between? I guess, the third answer would be the correct one, but how far I cannot really say after reading this book. The Vandals, as they were the only group that really conquered their territory from the Romans (maybe also the Langobards did, but they only came much later) were consequently the one group that did not necessarily need to adapt to the Roman culture, in contrast to the other groups that were originally given land by a Roman magister militum and that were hence more inclined to turn into Romans. This difference to other groups, however, in my opinion should have been stressed more and pointed out better in this book. The Vandals' identity remains thus, so to speak, ambiguous."
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-...ef=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1405160683

Yes but it wasn't Byzantine policy to allow potentially disruptive elements to concentrate themselves too much. The Vandals would be dispersed and thus would become extinct within a few generations.
Maybe some Vandal diaspora could survive outside the Byzantine empire or "underground"?

If there was no revolt in Sardinia, the Vandals could've well defeated Belisarius and stopped Justinian's ambitions for reconquest in his tracks. It doesn't mean they would be in a good position as the Berbers are still a factor.
The Berbers were not united, perhaps they could have been played off each others? Similar to the Roman doctrine of "divide et impera".

I'm sure one did exist. It was just that Roman civilization is THAT much alluring. Look at the Internet: most of the Internet is in English. Even if you weren't a native speaker, you are sort of compelled to learn it to speak it. Imagine that but in ancient times.
The Vandal kingdom was a important center of the Latin west, and hosted many of the great Latin scholars. That is what this book by Andrew Merrils say. Most if not all of this litterary work were in Latin, and not Vandalic.
https://www.amazon.com/Vandals-Andrew-Merrills/dp/1405160683

Here is a link to reviews of the book too.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/140516068...ProductDesc=1#product-description_feature_div
 
Last edited:
It wasnt enough to keep Manchu alive, nor was it enough to keep Frankish alive.
Yes you are right but there are examples of minority elites preserving their language. Minority elites that have a similar orgin to that of the Vandals, as in they both conquered a territory and established themselfes as elites.
-Spanish managed to survive as an elite language in Bolivia and Peru.

-French mananged to be the elite language of choice in England for centuries after the Norman conquest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language
 
Yes you are right but there are examples of minority elites preserving their language. Minority elites that have a similar orgin to that of the Vandals, as in they both conquered a territory and established themselfes as elites.
-Spanish managed to survive as an elite language in Bolivia and Peru.

-French mananged to be the elite language of choice in England for centuries after the Norman conquest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language

Both of those are languages of trade. The languages of Trade were Latin, Greek, Arabic, French etc. In chronological order.
 
Maybe Vandalic could serve as a ceremonial or govorment language?

Over time it would just be replaced by Latin. Other thing is we don't know what they spoke. I mean several Vandal Kings were Kings of the Vandals and Alans, implying a lack of full unity. Likely this is why they didn't completely Romanise. In this context Latin is more likely used, as it is more unitive, especially considering the roman speaking subjects.
 
Over time it would just be replaced by Latin. Other thing is we don't know what they spoke. I mean several Vandal Kings were Kings of the Vandals and Alans, implying a lack of full unity. Likely this is why they didn't completely Romanise. In this context Latin is more likely used, as it is more unitive, especially considering the roman speaking subjects.
If Vandalic was used as a religious language it would be more resilient. Even though it may lose it's role as a everyday language it may survive as a religious language like Coptic or Hebrew.
 
If Vandalic was used as a religious language it would be more resilient. Even though it may lose it's role as a everyday language it may survive as a religious language like Coptic or Hebrew.

Seems unlikely the Arians didn't really move to set up national churches, like they still used Latin etc.
 
Perhaps the power of the Berber is being overestimated here. The Berbers for the moment are woefully disunited and not in positive manner as to cause multiple foes, but in the negative manner of intermittent warfare with one another. As well, religiously diverse, the Berber are unlikely to present the power that some may ascribe to them. Islamic expansion into Africa was one of simply defeating various cobbled together coalitions and federations, who were headed by prominent leaders.

The weakness to the Berber, they failed to unite a military resistance that took account of their fair sized population and also rarely could bridge the gaps in logistical distance between various coalitions, forcing these coalitions to be local entities. With that in mind, the Vandals could be too feeble to defeat these various Berber coalitions as the Arabs did, but it is entirely plausible for the Vandals to develop various strategies regarding allying with various Berber tribes against another.

The system would not be untenable and could give territorial gains for the Vandals, especially if they make changes in their own system to allow for better relations with Byzantium. If gains are not possible, Vandalic leaders could simply benefit from a policy of keep the Berbers at bay with ever changing alliances and trade deals.
 
Perhaps the power of the Berber is being overestimated here. The Berbers for the moment are woefully disunited and not in positive manner as to cause multiple foes, but in the negative manner of intermittent warfare with one another. As well, religiously diverse, the Berber are unlikely to present the power that some may ascribe to them. Islamic expansion into Africa was one of simply defeating various cobbled together coalitions and federations, who were headed by prominent leaders.

The weakness to the Berber, they failed to unite a military resistance that took account of their fair sized population and also rarely could bridge the gaps in logistical distance between various coalitions, forcing these coalitions to be local entities. With that in mind, the Vandals could be too feeble to defeat these various Berber coalitions as the Arabs did, but it is entirely plausible for the Vandals to develop various strategies regarding allying with various Berber tribes against another.

The system would not be untenable and could give territorial gains for the Vandals, especially if they make changes in their own system to allow for better relations with Byzantium. If gains are not possible, Vandalic leaders could simply benefit from a policy of keep the Berbers at bay with ever changing alliances and trade deals.
The Vandals OTL lost control of the inland of the Atlas mountains to Berber tribes while keeping the coastline and the core of Vandal Africa. So it does appear that the Vandals failed to develop a strategy to rule/influence the Berbers more than they already did. Still Vandalic Carthage exerted alot of influence on Berber statelets, and the Vandal kingdom was by far the strongest state in the Maghreb while it lasted. In the end it appears that internal fractures was what broke the Vandal kingdom.
 
Last edited:

Attachments

  • Timgad 1.jpg
    Timgad 1.jpg
    166.1 KB · Views: 312
  • Timgad 2.jpg
    Timgad 2.jpg
    43 KB · Views: 311
  • Timgad 3.jpg
    Timgad 3.jpg
    327.4 KB · Views: 334
  • Timgad 4.jpg
    Timgad 4.jpg
    201.5 KB · Views: 305
Perhaps the power of the Berber is being overestimated here.
If anything, it's possibly underestimated on this thread.
Berbers were on the verge killing off Vandalic kingdom before Byzantine reconquest, and replacing it with a Berber-Roman ensemble.

The Berbers for the moment are woefully disunited and not in positive manner as to cause multiple foes, but in the negative manner of intermittent warfare with one another.
While not forming a single polity (far from it), it's quite probable they still formed strong if heterogenous (especially in Libya and Eastern Africa) coalitions, following similar geopolitical patterns than during Antiquity, for exemple roughly between Gulf of Gabes up to Moulouya River, with regular unifying leaderships such as Garmul's.
The existence of smaller confederations within this ensemble also temper what could be a superficial sight on disunity.

As well, religiously diverse, the Berber are unlikely to present the power that some may ascribe to them.
An important Christianisation of African Berbers was already happening by the Vth/VIth centuries. At worst, we're talking of a relation non unlike what pagans Franks had with Christian Gaul.

The weakness to the Berber, they failed to unite a military resistance that took account of their fair sized population
This is essentially a result of Byzantine reconquest that while failing at asserting imperial authority beyond the coastal band and dominance over neighbouring Berber polities, did prevented Berber coalitions to really stabilize up to leading to a known contraction of Berber projection in North Africa.

Translating the conclusion of Yves Modéran's Les Maures et l'Afrique Romaine.
Modern historiography, unanimous, considered decisive the role of populations called Maurs then Berbers in the evolution of Roman Africa in the third centuries before the Arab conquest; but it strangeley never tried to explain what could have been this role, wom importance and aspects were only sketched, often in a dark way, within essays or huge synthesis, more richs in general considerations than in scientific analysis. History of Maurs, of their place in african society, of their relationship with succeeding powers between the first crisis symptoms of the Western Roman Empire and the Arab presence, and their possible responsibility in the latter's success, was still to be written down. But we remembered the risky bet that could be such a research project. Even without the usual problems of all Ancient History, this topic had two specific obstacles to overcome that may had greatly limited its range. The first was in the rarity and particular nature of textual sources : Greeks, Latins, Syrians or Arabs, available written sources were almost all issued outside the Berber world and from circles often hostile or despising people considered mainly as barbarians. This first difficulty was increased by the scientific legacy that we recieved. A century and half of educated research on North African Late Antiquity made a really rich base that couldn't be neglected. But in the same time, historiographical analysis unveiled immediately how what we called five evidence prisma distorted or made harder the use of these studies when they mentioned Berbers.

Allying their influence, these two phenomenons exerted a particularly reducing effect on the studies devolved to Maurs of the Byzantine period, the era that this study had to privilege as the last before the collapse of romanity in Africa, and in the same time the one that in its initial phase, let us most sources. Relationship between Byzantines and Berbers were almost always seen as only a face of an history that was first about the Empire. And the difficulties regarding documentation for some, an ideological bias for many, reduced this topic to a study of military means used by Greeks to submit barbarians considered as naturally hostiles.

Then, we wanted there, and it was the fundamental base of our research, consider at the contrary every form of relationship of Byzantines, but as well Romans and Vandals, with Berbers in an African perspective first, and not a roman, vandal or byzantine one. Without trying to systematically "reverse" history, and never neglecting other social groups present then in Africa, this study was mainly based on Maurs themselves, whom identity was the great mystery of this time. Eternal Jugurthas or disguised Africans for scholars, they were always submitted to the quest of the one definition, that by principle disregarded their complexity. Radically opposed to C.Courtois, P.A. Février own his thesis of the ambigious Maur only trough this shared bias. Basing the criticism of sources on the maur identity, our method tried to take the problem to its source, with much hope as it was accompanied by a parallel hypothesis : the apparent instability and chaos of Berber history between the Vth and VIIth centuries may be explained first by their own structures, and critically from their integration in African romanity. To use the chosen example, understanding of apparently really confuse events of Libyan Wars of 530-550 could be based more, according this hypothesis, on a highlighting of the complexity of Maur world on which the Empire was confronted, and on the perception that the latter had, rather than a study about military problems or byzantine administration.

Was this hypothesis profitable? Summaries of recorded results seems at least proving that it deserved to be followed. After a preliminary critical analysis of the exceptional source that are Vandalic War of Procopus and critically Johannide of Corripos, and the elaboration of an utilization method for this texts, a first representation of the maur world imposed itself, characterized both by its important presence in the new byzantine Africa, but as well by its fundamental division in two categories. Based on two of the analysis criterium seen previously and that had fortunatly inspired Corippos's reflexion, the insertion degree in the Empire and the attitude before it, this division opposed groups considered as within the provinces and accustomed to romanity, and groups defined as "syrtics", considered foreign to the roman world and its civilization. Considered and written down by a direct witness, a Roman of Africa of 550's, this division broke right from the beggining all clichés on the one and intemporal Maur. The study demonstrated then its relevance, deepeining the original characters of each group.

Began on the syrtic peoples, localized on the modern libyian territory, this study was blocked quickly by the aforementioned historiogaphical obstacles. On two groups, Austuriania and Laguatan, was elaborated a grand theory assimilating many "syrtic" tribes to a "new race, Neoberbers" : defined as hords of camel-ridders akin to modern Tuareg, these tribes were supposed to be engaged since the IIIrd century in a great East/West migration, leading them to invade the most romanised provinces of Africa, and first Byzacena, since the end of Vth or early VIth, beforme taking over Maghreb in the following centuries. Widespread since half a century, this theory implied both a socio-cultural definition of the whole of Maur peoples, and an interpretation of Berbero-Byzantine conflicts, the essential objectives of this very book. Without accepting it or rejecting it at first, we used it at first as a base hupothesis on our study about "Outer Maurs", considering the possibility to abandon it if it was to be inefficient at some point.

And this is what effectively happened. Critical analyisis and collation of an important lot of sources often neglected lead us to propose a new representation of Laguatan and of their semi-desertic Libya's neighbors. Issued probably from ancient Nasmons, Laguatan and Austuriania, clearly pagans and that practiced a nomadic or semi-nomadic way of life, never went in Antiquity in great migrations to the West. Excluding exceptional raiding in 544-548, they at the contrary continuously searched, and eventually succeeded, to take the control of the Tripolitan, then Cyrenean predesert, where Arabs found them in the VIIth century.

This conclusion, confirming while limiting them, the particularities of the syrtic ensemble, strengthened as well the distinction of "Inner Maurs" relatively to this group. Without early migrations of great nomads in Byzacena or Numidia, we had to suppose that maurs populations of these regions determined themselves their fate, relatively of an original socio-economical and cultural evolution, that was still to be examined.

This part of the study was the longer and in the same time, the most decisive as it was about the less known groups of african society, living in former romanized regions, quickly christianized in the IIIrd and IVrd centuries, and without native urprising between the Ist and Vth centuries. Presence, number, past and critically the identity of these population in Corripus and Procopius' era created many questions. We had then in a first time, by a precise study of their three main representants of the mid VIth, Antalas, Cusina, and Iaudas, be sure of their localisation, then attempt to understand, wondering about their past, what justified both their classification as Maurs and their particular status. The density of chapters that was develloped on this questionary only reflects the complexity of the answer. Any too global view became wrong. On the chronological matter first, as it appeared that a part of the VIth Maurs was issued from populations that in the Vth weren't officially considered as such; on the social and cultural matter then, as a suite of intermediary situation could be guessed in "Maur" country between Afri and Mauri: on religion then, as the christianisation of tribes was extremly unequal. Inner Maurs' past have both the representation of latinized and christianized chiefs as the imperator Masties in Aurès, and highlanders as dark as Frexes of Guenfan in Byzacena S-W; it unites tribes that in the IVth had an acknowledged automony under the leadership of customary chiefs or prefects, and rural communauties agglomerated in villages in roman demesnes. Key of all the behaviroial ambigiuities to people as Antalas or Cusina face to the byzantine power, this past didn't obliterated an essential reality, that was clearly percieved by their Africano-Roman neighbours and established their unity : these populations all became in the mid VIth "Maurs" because they were integrated to a tribal structure. Neither strictly politic, religious or cultural, the base of their collective identity, highlighted by Corippos, was before everything the gens.

A far more flexible structure than modern historiography implies, totally compatible with Roman citizenship, tribe indeed survived in Byzacena and southern Numidia even in the IVth century, but depending on the situation, in two different levels : either it remained an autonomous entity with an official status; or it was only an organisation of village's social relationships, able to maintain a living reality even for groups serving great landowners. Its existance within provinces didn't mattered to the Empire : with their leaders invested by governors or prefects, even official tribes, with roman citizenship, christanized or about to be, were indeed peaceful and probably more or less integrated to roman economical structures. The regular silence of contemporary sources is less surprising, as well the absence of native agitation movements. These were generally rare in central provinces, as the Berber policy of the Empire allied fortunatly strength, flexibility and pragmatism. Rome didn't distinguished two, but probably three Maur categories. Face to Inner Maurs, it knew and tried to isolate a given number of unstable saharian groups, for exemple in the south of Tobna or in Tripolitana. Against these gens, limes was maintained, but most of all reinforced by agreements with a third kind of tribes, placed to the borders. Some of these officialy served the Empire as gentiles units, other contended to enjoy the roman neighborhood, gaining the right to lead their cattle in province, or selling their goods or workforce.

This balanced system was only gradually put in question in the Vth century. Probably shaken by the Vandal invasion, it collapsed only after the 480's, for reason still unknown, probably as much political than economical : inner difficulties of Hasding regime, issued mostly from its religious policy, mixed themselves to an impoverishment of southern Byzacena and Numidia counryside, maybe provoked by a slight climatic oscillation. Saharians progression in Tripolitana then began, leading little by little bordering tribes whom originality disappeared. In the same time, more in the North, first uprising appeared, sometimes to the initiative of second circle tribes, there too with a rising effective of gentes, that absorbed thanks to the flexibility of their structure, a destabilized rural proletariat. Increased continuously in the following half-century, this movement produced definitive effect with the Byzantine presence : duality of the Berber world, clearly drawn, when the inner complexity of each of these great groups, Inner and Outer Maurs, increased.

Did Justinian's men knew and understood this extreme complexity? Our work points that they came in 533 while largely ignoring it. Underestimating difficulties, and ignoring critically the originality of the Inner Maur group, Byzantines provoked a fighting process that may have been wished for by Romans of Africa. The seemed to have first compromised with the gentes presence in the provinces, using the clear will to find a modus vivendi with the Empire.

In reality, referring to a largely unrealistic and artificial mode, Justinian's men worked, as soon Vandals defeated, to eliminate these communities judged all equally foreign and barbarians. A first wave of conflict was born out of it, whom the Empire managed to take the upper hand only by changing of strategy, and compromising with some leaders. Once the peace established and the roman power reinforced, the prefect Solomon didn't renounced to the schema designed by Justinian in 533 and it definitely seem that these initiatives caused the great wars of 544-548. Succession of defeats for three years, they weren't catastrophic for Constantinople : heterogeneity of the coalition uniting Inner Maurs and syrtic tribes was translated indeed by divergent strategies, preventing every decisive victory. Jean Troglita and the return to realism once practiced by Solomon in 546 saved imperial position in Africa : the byzantine general eventually choose to come back to Fall 533 situation, acknowledging inside provinces maur communities, that with leaders and particular customs, maintained a relative autonomy.

That this balance, if it had been chosen since 533, would have been unstable anyway, the few we know of the post-548 seems to prove it with the short mentions of Maur wars in the chronicles. Still, the lack of knowledge of african realities by the byzantine power certainly aggravated a political crisis developped since the end of Vth century, that could have, at term, lead to a Berbero-ROman society akin to the model we see then in Mauretania. The tentative of Imperator Masties in Aures unveil the possibilities of such process. Byzantine reconquest then broke this evolution, not wished, admittedly, by Romans of Africa if Corripos is to be trusted. Then was recreated an isolate of traditional romanity in a western world where everywhere could be seen cultural and social fusion between Latins and Barbarians. The history of this isolated, between 548 and first Islamic attacks, wasn't reduced to a succession of war : it did had its time of prosperity, as discovered more and more by archeologists. But in all Arab texts, insisting on the distinction in Ifrikiyya of Berbers, Afarik and Rum, does prove that the byzantine era maintained communautarian firm distinction that Justinian laws and Solomon strongholds proclaimed right from the beginning.

And still, potentialities of the multiples nuances of African societies, and particularly maurs, didn't disappeared by the VIIth century, as proven by the history of the Arab conquest, and the first appearance of Botr/Branès that achieve this book. Outer Maur submission, Botr, was made in Cyrenaica and Tripolitan in mere years, and since the 670's Lawata and Zenata were associated to Islamic expeditions. On the contrary, in Byzacena and Numidia, in the Inner Maur country, renamed Branès maybe because of the christianisation, conquerors were opposed by regular alliance of Berbers and Romans, lead by greek Gregoire, Berber Kusayla and then, at least in the first part of this adventure, by the famed and mysterious Kahina. These spontaneous unions point well all the synthesis possibilities that could have appeared one century earlier between each side.

They lead us to close this book on what should be more than a paradox. C.Courtois, achieving his thesis, tought that the real drama of roman Africa wasn't the Vandal invasion, but the riebirth of a Berber world remained itself, meaning rejecting necessary the romanity. At the end of this long study, we wonder if the real rupture in this history wasn't the byzantine reconquest. Without this, in an easter Maghreb where the roman influence was really strong, the Maur expansion could have lead, not without violence, to a berbero-roman civilisation, original and dirable, as was merovingian civilisation in Gaul. The "divine surprise" that was Belisarius' successful expedition, aprooved by a roman society proclaiming its fear of the Maur, broke this possibility. Maybe did it as well condamned the future of the romanity it claimed to save.
 
Last edited:
I know this has been an inactive thread for some time but I would like to chime in with a scenario I've thought up to allow for a North African state to develop derived from the Vandal Kingdom. Culturally and linguistically it will probably Romanise or Berberise over coming centuries and embrace Catholicism.

The POD for me would be the Vandals repelling the Byzantine invasion which I think is doable. When the Arabs come along the North Africans have to fight them off. I going by the logic that those who are local to a land are those best placed to defend it. An independent regional power would fight harder for Africa than the Byzantine did and The Vandals and Aures Confederacy could ally against the Arabs. Just putting that out there...
 
Top