Discussion Thread: Future of the Third Reich without WW2

I'm surprised that no one has suggested the obvious "Ледокол" scenario where Stalin builds up his forces and invades Western Europe before nuclear weapons are invented. Europe outside of the U.K. just become new Soviet Socialist Republics. They probably attack America at some point. The end.

Joanna Russ had an ATL where Hitler was assassinated in 1936 and the World was still suffering from the Great Depression in 1960. I believe it's in The Female Man.
 
Some kind of crash after 1940 as the unsustainable government spending turns sustainable again, one way or another, with rising unemployment and companies which gorged themselves on government money reducing in size or going out of business, could be a start for a new Great Depression, or continuation of the old one if it still hasnt been declared over. That aught to put a dent in the Nazi parties popularity and make the communists once again more popular as once again the USSR with its """superior economic system free of capitalist exploitation and bourgeois misspending""" is not nearly as much affected as everyone else.
 
I'm surprised that no one has suggested the obvious "Ледокол" scenario where Stalin builds up his forces and invades Western Europe before nuclear weapons are invented. Europe outside of the U.K. just become new Soviet Socialist Republics. They probably attack America at some point. The end.

Joanna Russ had an ATL where Hitler was assassinated in 1936 and the World was still suffering from the Great Depression in 1960. I believe it's in The Female Man.
Very unlikely to happen. The USSR would be completely alone in such a war and draw the ire of everyone. Stalin feared the possibility of Western Europe uniting to oppose him, which is what inevitably would happen in such a scenario.
 
Some kind of crash after 1940 as the unsustainable government spending turns sustainable again, one way or another, with rising unemployment and companies which gorged themselves on government money reducing in size or going out of business, could be a start for a new Great Depression, or continuation of the old one if it still hasnt been declared over. That aught to put a dent in the Nazi parties popularity and make the communists once again more popular as once again the USSR with its """superior economic system free of capitalist exploitation and bourgeois misspending""" is not nearly as much affected as everyone else.
Could this new depression topple the Nazi party or make the Nazi party reform?
 
Could this new depression topple the Nazi party or make the Nazi party reform?
I doubt that - there was no voting any more and heavy propaganda and reeducation was being implemented at all levels of society, they would most certainly be busy with domestic issues for the next 10 years though, by then Hitler dies of all the conditions he has and someone else takes over, you could get a reform minded faction in power if the crazies are kept in check.
 
Germany would probably keep expanding. Getting Slovenia,south jutland and the german speaking parts of Belgium. And maybe Luxembourg.
 
Main problem is this, after Czechoslovakia, any German expansion will cause WW2 period. Germany has used up all its credit and appeasement is totally discredited by the end of 1938. So no WW2 means pre 1939 boundaries.
This brings up two issues that relate, first its continuing treatment of Jews/Slavs/Gypsies/Communists/Handicapped etc was/would cause sanctions/embargoes/boycotts from other nations. The persecuted can try and flee but this is the 1940's, no one will take many ( even the US was turning ships away ) so they mainly will have to stay put and suffer so creating more and more bad press.

The German economy was in a bad way by 1938. Hitler was building a lot and creating a false boom by use of internal IOU's and confiscation of undesirables assets, this can only continue so long. Add in the embargoes , sanctions and boycotts and Germany starts to implode by the mid 40's economically. Tanks and planes are great but they don't produce food or heat.

So we get to say, 1942, popular unrest is growing due to the economy, the military is basically just maintaining what it has whilst all the other European powers have rebuilt their militaries. Stalin has got all he wanted out of his pact with Germany ( machine tools , tech , equipment etc as Germany will have had to substitute these for money) and has no need to be nice ( as much as he every was ). So Germany would lose if it attacked anyone rather quickly ie WW2 by German aggression is probably over as an option.

Longer term, either the Nazi's fall due to internal issues or they go into a repressive tailspin leading to ever lower economic performance compared to everyone else ( think North Korea ). WW2 is then avoided but the Reich is a third world country which like the USSR falls apart as soon as it cannot repress enough.
 
In terms of further expansions:

There were proposals in the 1920s for Belgium to sell Eupen-Melmedy back to Weimar Germany.

If there's a Yugoslav Civil War, which I expect there would be as Italy was supporting the Croatian Partisans, Germany likely gets the sliver of northern Slovenia it historically did. The question of what to do with Banat (where there were a number of Germans) would come up. If the Germans are insistent on Lebensraum being a thing, rump Serbia might be a substitute for their eastern desires.

Once Poland completes its new port at Gdynia it won't care so much about Danzig anymore. Ironically, a German Danzig probably ruins the city since they wouldn't benefit from Vistula shipping. Ultimately I see an extra-territorial highway or railroad happening eventually but I could be wrong. The issue with Poland is that despite their being allied to France and Britain, they were also part of the dismantling of Czechoslovakia.

There was that border zone in Slovenia which the Germans administered directly as well.


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My understanding is the German economy in the 1930s and German military buildup was so financed by debt that had the country not outright invaded its neighbors and creditors it'd have collapsed economically.

Germany would likely engage in Romanian-levels of natalism. There'd be population exchanges with Italy regarding the Germans of Slovenia and South Tyrol (something planned OTL). Odds are a lot of Polish Ostdeutsche would be repatriated to the Reich over time. Looking at the deaths the war caused and OTL population figures, a Germany whose population is in the 120-125 million range seems likely to me.



Here Poland and Romania are still allied and western-aligned. Southern Dobruja remains Romanian. Bulgaria is axis-aligned, especially following a dismantling of Yugoslavia.

Stalin was a person who didn't like protracted conflicts and liked small low-cost land grabs. I doubt he starts a war with anybody in Europe. Asia/Japan might be a different matter however.



Over time I think Germany will end up an isolated country (well, even more isolated) cut off from international trade and reminiscent of North Korea, albeit richer.

When Mussolini dies I wouldn't be surprised to see Italy move away from Germany, leaving Germany with only Hungary and Slovakia as friends.


The biggest difference TTL (while there are many) would be that the USSR hasn't suffered from the deaths of 30 million of its citizens and the devastation of its industrial core in Ukraine. Plus they might expand in Asia at the expense of Japan and China. They'll be a thousand miles further east, but their global reach capacity may be greater here.
 
Jews/Slavs/Gypsies/Communists/Handicapped etc was/would cause sanctions/embargoes/boycotts from other nations.
This didn't cause any issues in OTL and other countries were doing the same or worse during the time period without much issue.
Here Poland and Romania are still allied and western-aligned. Southern Dobruja remains Romanian. Bulgaria is axis-aligned, especially following a dismantling of Yugoslavia.
If Yugoslavia is dismantled and Germany doesn't become hostile or ceases its hostility to Poland. It could lead to both countries joining the Axis as they would be stuck between the Soviet Union on side and Germany and Co on the other.
 
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If Yugoslavia is dismantled and Germany doesn't become hostile or ceases its hostility to Poland. It could lead to both countries joining the Axis as they would be stuck between the Soviet Union on side and Germany and Co on the other.

Uh no Romania only joined Germany because France had fallen and Germany was the only game in town if France hasn't fallen Romania and Poland stick with them because Hitler just proved his word is worth less than dirt with the German occupation of Czechia
 
Uh no Romania only joined Germany because France had fallen and Germany was the only game in town if France hasn't fallen Romania and Poland stick with them
I mean like long term or after Hitler dies as Poland can't held a two front war as shown in Otl so an alliance with Germany would be desirable. Should Poland join the axis and Yugoslavia be dismantled. Romania would surrounded by axis on one side and the Soviet Union on the other so an alliance with Germany would also make sense.

Hitler just proved his word is worth less than dirt with the German occupation of Czechia
Haven't the allies as well having left Czechoslovakia to its fate and not enforcing the treaty of Versailles.
 
How would this alternate Germany's ties with nations outside Europe?

Might this ATL Germany have any intrested in promoting decolonization, as this could give them more partners and deprive it's enemies of colonies?
 
This didn't cause any issues in OTL and other countries were doing the same or worse during the time period.

If Yugoslavia is dismantled and Germany doesn't become hostile or ceases its hostility to Poland. It could lead to both countries joining the Axis as they would be stuck between the Soviet Union on side and Germany and Co on the other.
I'll bite , are you actually saying what the Germans were doing was acceptable? It was causing issues, German trade was being squeezed and popular opinion in what would become the allies was turning against them.
Romania and Greece were given the same protection as Poland by Britain and France, as GDIS Pathe says the deal with Germany was after the other options were not on the table. Yugoslavia being dismembered would have caused WW2 to break out, not to say that Italy would probably have done as well as she did against Greece if she tried it.
As I pointed out earlier , Germany is not in a state she can maintain long term, economically without annexing land she collapses, so unless Hitler is dying in 1940, its not going to last that long and still be in a state to win an offensive war.
 
Uh no Romania only joined Germany because France had fallen and Germany was the only game in town if France hasn't fallen Romania and Poland stick with them because Hitler just proved his word is worth less than dirt with the German occupation of Czechia
Would a new fuhrer or some other form of German govorment get a new chance?
 
Germany would likely engage in Romanian-levels of natalism. There'd be population exchanges with Italy regarding the Germans of Slovenia and South Tyrol (something planned OTL). Odds are a lot of Polish Ostdeutsche would be repatriated to the Reich over time. Looking at the deaths the war caused and OTL population figures, a Germany whose population is in the 120-125 million range seems likely to me.
Why would Germans in Poland repatriate to Germany? Would it be willingly or forced?
Over time I think Germany will end up an isolated country (well, even more isolated) cut off from international trade and reminiscent of North Korea, albeit richer.
Today many countries that commit or commited human rights violation are/were very integrated into international trade(China, Myanmar, Russia, Argentina) at the time of their human rights violation, why should Germany be any different?
When Mussolini dies I wouldn't be surprised to see Italy move away from Germany, leaving Germany with only Hungary and Slovakia as friends.
Why do you assume that Italy will move away from Germany? Were not Italy engaging in similar behavior(Italian-Ethiopian war, Anti Slavicism, Anti Semitism)? Why would not Italy and Germany be forced to cooperate, as they had similar regimes?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Fascism_and_racism
The biggest difference TTL (while there are many) would be that the USSR hasn't suffered from the deaths of 30 million of its citizens and the devastation of its industrial core in Ukraine. Plus they might expand in Asia at the expense of Japan and China. They'll be a thousand miles further east, but their global reach capacity may be greater here.
This ATL Soviet demography could be very intresting? Perhaps it might also increase the longterm chances of Soviet survival?
 
Well, then it wouldn’t be the Nazis, would it?
Different Nazis. Would that matter to USA, UK, France, Poland?

Maybe just as their are many forms of communism
-Marxism
-Leninism
-Stalinism
-Maoism
-Juche
-Anarcho Syndicalism
There would be different forms for Nazism?
 
I'll bite , are you actually saying what the Germans were doing was acceptable? It was causing issues, German trade was being squeezed and popular opinion in what would become the allies was turning against them.
I never said it was acceptable. The Soviet Union did various atrocities to its own people without any international repercussions. Italy was only temporarily sanctioned over its invasion of Ethiopia and didn't face any issues internationally over its treatment afterwards.
 
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Deleted member 94680

Different Nazis. Would that matter to USA, UK, France, Poland?

Maybe just as their are many forms of communism
-Marxism
-Leninism
-Stalinism
-Maoism
-Juche
-Anarcho Syndicalism
There would be different forms for Nazism?

Not really, as we understand it. Nazism is National Socialism with Hitler’s personal bent.

Saying that, given time, Nazism may evolve over time to have “Himmlerism”, “Strasserite” or “Goebbelist” strands I suppose. But I’m not sure how you would vary genocidal madness with completely useless industrial/military management to any noticeable degree.
 
How would this alternate Germany's ties with nations outside Europe?

Might this ATL Germany have any intrested in promoting decolonization, as this could give them more partners and deprive it's enemies of colonies?

Germany is broke, tapped out as far as gold and foreign exchange goes. The civilian economy was cannibalized to feed the military build up, it's foreign trade is pretty much reduced to barter even as far as Southern Europe goes. The German railway system was crumbling by 1940 and only looting French rolling stock after the capitulation kept them going. Germany is going to be focused on trying to avoid collapse, not provoking trouble in other nations colonial empires, which BTW would pretty much guarantee war with the French and the British and wouldn't go over well with the Italians either.
 
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