Discussion Thread: Future of the Third Reich without WW2

[Hvalrossen]

In the absence of the second world war, what would Germany's history be like in comparison with OTL?

Some questions regarding this scenario
Could Germany fight a war with Poland without it escalating into a war similar to WW2?

Would the Nazi party keep power? For how long?

Would Germany keep Czechia longterm? How would Czechia be affected by continual German rule?

Would the Germany of the Nazi regime be able to make neccesary reforms(anti corruption)?

How would this Germany look like demographically?

How would this Germany's economy be like?

How could this scenario impact the idea of a German nation? OTL it switched from ancestry to a citizenship model similar to France or USA.

How would the absence of WW2 affect the German diasporas?

What would the future relations of this Germany in a world without WW2 be with USA, UK, France, Italy, China, Japan and the Soviet Union, aswell as minor countries.
About this thread
- You are allowed to put foreward your own questions, if it something you wonder about.
- Try to show sources if possible. This will allow readers to check statements. But don't let this precent you from commenting, it is better to comment withour a source than to not comment at all.

 

[Deleted member 90949]

Such a thing would necessitate removing Hitler from power, followed by a serious downgrading of the unsustainable German military.

 

[Tricky Nicky]

A little bit to answer but I'll try to state them:

1. No. Britain and France made it quite clear after the fall of Czechoslavakia that any invasion of another question will mean war.

2. They would try to but a long time insurgency will kinda make it hard to keep it. Czechia would be a lot more German however

3. Only if Hitler's cabinet is killed off as well as Hitler himself

4. More Germanic-Aryan and Spartan like

5. Very Militaristic

6. Still Ancestry based though more jingoistic

7. They either die or flee to another country.

 

[walmart]

2. They would try to but a long time insurgency will kinda make it hard to keep it. Czechia would be a lot more German however

It wouldn't be hard to keep as there no bases or ways to get arms for insurgencies. At max it would look like the troubles.

 

[Hvalrossen]

A little bit to answer but I'll try to state them:

1. No. Britain and France made it quite clear after the fall of Czechoslavakia that any invasion of another question will mean war.

2. They would try to but a long time insurgency will kinda make it hard to keep it. Czechia would be a lot more German however

7. They either die or flee to another country.

1. What if something similar to the scenario presented in the false flag project operation Himmler(fabrication of supposed genocide against ethnic germans) had happened? Would that make the western democracies rethink their position.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Himmler
2. Could Czechia be assimilated similarily to OTL Sorbs. OTL Sorbs got mostly germanised while there is still a minority identifying mostly as Slavic.
7. Why and what diaspora are you talking about? Why would the german diaspora outside germany have to flee? Who would want them to die?

 

[Tricky Nicky]

1. What if something similar to the scenario presented in the false flag project operation Himmler(fabrication of supposed genocide against ethnic germans) had happened? Would that make the western democracies rethink their position.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Himmler
2. Could Czechia be assimilated similarily to OTL Sorbs. OTL Sorbs got mostly germanised while there is still a minority identifying mostly as Slavic.
7. Why and what diaspora are you talking about? Why would the german diaspora outside germany have to flee? Who would want them to die?

1. Unless Pacifists remain in power in both GB and France, No. GB and France knew that more appeasement would lead to German expansion without being checked. Find some POD that allows pacifists to always be in power in both countries and maybe Operation Himmler could work.

2. Possibly, but there would still be a rather large percentage that try to fight rather than assimilate. Think French Resistance but on a smaller scale with their only escape route being a Poland if it isn't conquered.

7. the Hungarians, Italians, Romanians, and definately the Slovaks and Poles. They would have the choice of fleeing and or Germans looking for them. Hitler had a clear objective and those in Slovakia were under the most risk, considering how loyal Slovakia was to Germany IRL.

 

[MattII]

1. What if something similar to the scenario presented in the false flag project operation Himmler(fabrication of supposed genocide against ethnic germans) had happened? Would that make the western democracies rethink their position.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Himmler

Nope, because everyone would know (or be able to guess) it was a false-flag operation.

on a wider scale, I'm not sure you can have the third reich without WW2 at some point, their whole economy was geared towards conquest.

 

[Hvalrossen]

1. Unless Pacifists remain in power in both GB and France, No. GB and France knew that more appeasement would lead to German expansion without being checked. Find some POD that allows pacifists to always be in power in both countries and maybe Operation Himmler could work.

2. Possibly, but there would still be a rather large percentage that try to fight rather than assimilate. Think French Resistance but on a smaller scale with their only escape route being a Poland if it isn't conquered.

7. the Hungarians, Italians, Romanians, and definately the Slovaks and Poles. They would have the choice of fleeing and or Germans looking for them. Hitler had a clear objective and those in Slovakia were under the most risk, considering how loyal Slovakia was to Germany IRL.

1. I was presenting a scenario where operation himmler does not happen but what is attempts present inorder to justify war on Poland OTL, then really happen ATL.
7. KK. But you don't think the german diasporas in the Americas would have anything to fear?

 

[Hvalrossen]

Nope, because everyone would know (or be able to guess) it was a false-flag operation.

on a wider scale, I'm not sure you can have the third reich without WW2 at some point, their whole economy was geared towards conquest.

What i was asking is what if it was not a false flag operation. I know operation himmler was a OTL false flag operation. So in this ATL scenario i presented, what operation himmler fabricated, really happened and was not a false flag.

 

[Tricky Nicky]

1. I was presenting a scenario where operation himmler does not happen but what is attempts present inorder to justify war on Poland OTL, then really happen ATL.
7. KK. But you don't think the german diasporas in the Americas would have anything to fear?

1. France and GB still wouldn't budge. If Germany invades, even if it is "just", they will still declare war. They couldn't trust Germany in diplomacy anymore and thus they wouldn't believe anything Germany would say/do. Germany broke any trust the WAllies had for it after invading Czechia.

7. Not really but they would want a state of their own if they hear about what's happening in Europe.

 

[walmart]

What would the future relations of this Germany in a world without WW2 be with USA, UK, France, Italy, China, Japan and the Soviet Union, aswell as minor countries.

They would remain allied with Italy and Japan

How would the absence of WW2 affect the German diasporas?

Spread out across Eastern Europe and likely used by Germany for political influence . German diasporas outside of Europe nothing much changes expect for German attempts at maintaining language and political and economic ties.

 

[walmart]

7. the Hungarians, Italians, Romanians, and definately the Slovaks and Poles. They would have the choice of fleeing and or Germans looking for them. Hitler had a clear objective and those in Slovakia were under the most risk, considering how loyal Slovakia was to Germany IRL.

They were only expelled as a result of world war 2 without it they stay. Italy, Hungary, and Slovakia are allied with Germany so they won't go after their German populations. If Romania or Poland started to. They would threatened into stopping.

 

[Hvalrossen]

Question round 2:
1. How would the absence of WW2 affect the perception of Hitler and the Nazi party in Germany and abroad?
2. What OTL country would the future ATL Germany resemble the most? Why?
3. What would the future of Christianity be in Germany?
4. Would Germany in a world absent WW2 involve itself in Soviet affairs? Perhaps a war? How would the Wallies see a Soviet German war?
5. How would this ATL Germany adapt to globalization(trade,communication technologies)?
6. How would the absence of WW2 affect decolonization?

 

[walmart]

1. How would the absence of WW2 affect the perception of Hitler and the Nazi party in Germany and abroad?

Hitler would viewed as a second Bismarck for overturning the treaty of Versailles and reuniting the majority of German land .

2. What OTL country would the future ATL Germany resemble the most? Why?

In terms of military expenditures the Soviet Union. A Nazi Germany would spend a lot on defense.

4. Would Germany in a world absent WW2 involve itself in Soviet affairs? Perhaps a war? How would the Wallies see a Soviet German war?

They would oppose communism globally but they wouldn't invade the Soviet Union given they wouldn't border it and the whole two front war threat.

6. How would the absence of WW2 affect decolonization?

Happens later with more colonies remaining part of the metropolis

 

[Hvalrossen]

They would oppose communism globally but they wouldn't invade the Soviet Union given they wouldn't border it and the whole two front war threat.

German East Prussia would border the Soviet Union if the Soviets annex the Baltic states, but you are right, Germany did not initially border the Soviet Union.

 

[walmart]

German East Prussia would border the Soviet Union if the Soviets annex the Baltic states, but you are right, Germany did not initially border the Soviet Union.

They wouldn’t annex them without World war 2

 

[Jan Olbracht]

2. Could Czechia be assimilated similarily to OTL Sorbs. OTL Sorbs got mostly germanised while there is still a minority identifying mostly as Slavic.

Sorbs, already tiny ethnic group by start of 20th century, without tradition of separate statehood, could not be compared to tens times more numerous Czechs. Easily Germanizable Czechs is one of common clichés on AH.

 

[Bosemacher]

One possibility is for Danzig to conduct a plebiscite on unification with Germany and announce a date for reunification. Poland will attack to prevent the reunification from taking place. The UK may not declare war if Poland is perceived as the aggressor.

 

[Chapman]

This might be a stupid line of questioning, but I haven't seen the topic outright mentioned yet, so I'll ask. Would the Final Solution still be a thing, without WW2? I think it's fair to assume there would be fewer victims, probably by a lot, but would the policy of systematic and deliberate genocide still be formulated? Would it even be necessary, assuming most persecuted groups fled the country and managed to find refuge elsewhere? From what I understand, IOTL, it seemed to be a reaction to the sudden influx of "undesirable" ethnic populations due to conquered territories; so would no war make this policy unnecessary?

 

[Jan Olbracht]

This might be a stupid line of questioning, but I haven't seen the topic outright mentioned yet, so I'll ask. Would the Final Solution still be a thing, without WW2? I think it's fair to assume there would be fewer victims, probably by a lot, but would the policy of systematic and deliberate genocide still be formulated? Would it even be necessary, assuming most persecuted groups fled the country and managed to find refuge elsewhere? From what I understand, IOTL, it seemed to be a reaction to the sudden influx of "undesirable" ethnic populations due to conquered territories; so would no war make this policy unnecessary?

If nazis were contained in Germany, German Jews would simply emigrate, leaving nazis in need to find another internal enemy.