Discussion: Prolonged Middle Ages

[Timeline Junkie]

The title is fairly self-explanatory. How do you create a Europe and for that matter a world stuck in the High Middle Ages for another 1000 years?



I would think the Black Death as a disease dying out before it spread throughout Europe might allow Europe to stay in the High Middle Ages, but another plague could easily do the same or worse to Eurasia.


In addition, the Byzantines need to still be in control of Anatolia to prevent Europeans from circumventing the Ottomans by trying to travel the seas.

 

[Timeline Junkie]

List of Events that could Happen

• Byzantine Empire remains in Anatolia and controls the trade between the East and Europe
• War of the Roses never happens, Edward III has less sons than OTL
• Castile and Aragon cannot be united
• Habsburgs should not inherit the Low Countries, i.e. Mary of Burgundy is born a male
• Habsburgs do not make the HRE de facto hereditary
• Protestant Reformation does not happen or fails to gain ground

 

[kholieken]

High Middle Ages is highpoint of European developments and very difficult to sustain, they had turn every farmable land to farm, exhaust forest, forced to expand (Crusades, Reconquista, Germans expansion to east), and had regular famines/rebellion/epidemic due to population growth.

Its easier to maintain Early Middle Ages with various endemic disease that reduce population growth.

 

[Hegemon]

If Manzikert is either avoided or goes differently, and assuming Anatolia is not lost at a later date, then the Crusades may be butterflied away entirely. This could at least delay the cultural contact and increased demand for eastern goods that the Crusades fostered IOTL. Also, no Ottomans, so at least one of your requirements is definitely met.

 

[H.Flashman(VC)]

Could you give a list of characteristics you like to keep? There are f.i. who claim quite rightfull that the middle-ages ended at the end of the 18th century.

 

[Timeline Junkie]

High Middle Ages is highpoint of European developments and very difficult to sustain, they had turn every farmable land to farm, exhaust forest, forced to expand (Crusades, Reconquista, Germans expansion to east), and had regular famines/rebellion/epidemic due to population growth.

Its easier to maintain Early Middle Ages with various endemic disease that reduce population growth.

Thanks for clarifying. That is very helpful. Then I would posit, how would keep Europe in an extended Early Middle Ages?

 

[Byzantion]

List of Events that could Happen

• Byzantine Empire remains in Anatolia and controls the trade between the East and Europe
• War of the Roses never happens, Edward III has less sons than OTL
• Castile and Aragon cannot be united
• Habsburgs should not inherit the Low Countries, i.e. Mary of Burgundy is born a male
• Habsburgs do not make the HRE de facto hereditary
• Protestant Reformation does not happen or fails to gain ground

No Gutenberg book print.

 

[Timeline Junkie]

No Gutenberg book print.

That's really important. I certainly agree. Flow of information, unfortunately, in the Middle Ages has to be slow and stagnant

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Existing East Roman Empire won't guarantee the Middle Ages to continue. Odds are the East Romans will challenge the West again, replacing the Ottomans.

Personally, I think that conversion of Europe should take longer if you want the Middle Ages to continue.

 

[Byzantine fanatic]

The title is fairly self-explanatory. How do you create a Europe and for that matter a world stuck in the High Middle Ages for another 1000 years?

"Middle Ages" is a very Eurocentric concept. It implies that there was something else before (the Roman Empire) and after (the Renaissance).

But for much of the rest of the world, the concept doesn't really work. In the Islamic world for instance the historical time periods of relevance were the age of jahiliyya (before the hijra), then the subsequent age of the Caliphate, followed by the Abbasid Revolution. This was followed by a period of fragmentation, rivalry between the Shia and Sunni for control (the Fatimids in Egypt were Shia until they were overthrown by Saladin), the rise of the Seljuk Turks and their empire, the Mongol invasion and destuction of Baghdad, the rise of the Ottomans, and the age of the three gunpowder empires (Ottoman Empire, Safavid Persia and the Mughals in India).

Point being it's hard to make the "middle ages" longer outside Europe when the "middle ages" never existed in the land of Persians, Arabs, Berbers and Turks in the first place.

One could no doubt extend this to China and India as well, which wouldn't fit the "middle ages" concept either.

 

[DominusNovus]

That's really important. I certainly agree. Flow of information, unfortunately, in the Middle Ages has to be slow and stagnant

The Middle Ages were hardly slow or stagnant, unless you conpare them to the modern era, in which case all of human history is slow and stagnant. They were in many ways more original than their Renaissance successors, who spent their time trying to recreate the past.

 

[Timeline Junkie]

"Middle Ages" is a very Eurocentric concept. It implies that there was something else before (the Roman Empire) and after (the Renaissance).

But for much of the rest of the world, the concept doesn't really work. In the Islamic world for instance the historical time periods of relevance were the age of jahiliyya (before the hijra), then the subsequent age of the Caliphate, followed by the Abbasid Revolution. This was followed by a period of fragmentation, rivalry between the Shia and Sunni for control (the Fatimids in Egypt were Shia until they were overthrown by Saladin), the rise of the Seljuk Turks and their empire, the Mongol invasion and destuction of Baghdad, the rise of the Ottomans, and the age of the three gunpowder empires (Ottoman Empire, Safavid Persia and the Mughals in India).

Point being it's hard to make the "middle ages" longer outside Europe when the "middle ages" never existed in the land of Persians, Arabs, Berbers and Turks in the first place.

I understand that the Middle Ages being a eurocentric concept is true. Ultimately, I was curious to see how the world could be stuck at a technological and organization level of the European Middle Ages. Ultimately, what if the gundpowder empires did not rise after the Mongol invasions. What

The Middle Ages were hardly slow or stagnant, unless you conpare them to the modern era, in which case all of human history is slow and stagnant. They were in many ways more original than their Renaissance successors, who spent their tome trying to recreate the past.

I am being a little present-centric I guess. Yet, I would ask what do you think would be needed to impede technological development in the World at the time?

 

[Wolttaire]

MONGOLS invade Europe

 

[Marc]

Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres.

My metaphor for preventing the rise of great kingdoms as a necessary condition for prolonging most aspects of medieval culture.
Granted highly unlikely, centripetal force seems to be part of political physics.

 

[alexmilman]

MONGOLS invade Europe

Hardly more than they did in the OTL during the "High Middle Ages": their empire disintegrated during the "Late Middle Ages" and that process had nothing to do with any post-medieval technological developments. Not that the whole terminology has any serious meaning outside (Western/Central) Europe or that its division into the "sub-periods" is anything but artificial.

 

[Wolttaire]

Hardly more than they did in the OTL during the "High Middle Ages": their empire disintegrated during the "Late Middle Ages" and that process had nothing to do with any post-medieval technological developments. Not that the whole terminology has any serious meaning outside (Western/Central) Europe or that its division into the "sub-periods" is anything but artificial.

Yah the Middle East was not at all devastated by the invasion same with Persia or China they were fine

 

[Vuu]

Emperor Dušan lives 10 years longer, takes Constantinople and stops Ottoman enroachment. Trade route status: protected. Scholar status: not moved

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

Emperor Dušan lives 10 years longer, takes Constantinople and stops Ottoman enroachment. Trade route status: protected. Scholar status: not moved

Europe was already in the Renaissance by his time. Or at least, Italy was.

 

[alexmilman]

Yah the Middle East was not at all devastated by the invasion same with Persia or China they were fine

What this has to do with what you wrote about the potential Mongolian invasion of Europe (I assume that you are talking about the Central/Western Europe)? Can you please explain what exactly are you trying to say?

 

[vortiger]

In addition, the Byzantines need to still be in control of Anatolia to prevent Europeans from circumventing the Ottomans by trying to travel the seas.

common misconception to why Europeans looked for an alternative route to the east. it was more the factor that Venice pretty much a the monopoly on the carriage trade in the eastern Mediterranean. even with a surviving Byzantine empire it wouldn't prevent Portugal wanting to get a share of the spice trade.