Discussion on Terrorism, September 11th and what could have happened

[Burton K Wheeler]

Because, strange tho it may be, I have tried to do nothing but show respect for you and your opinions. I disagree with the majority, but I have ever tried to maintain a civil tone (okay, I've lost it a few times, but by far far less than others here).

I think one difference between us is that I don't hate my opponents. Hate leads to irrational behavior and ill-reasoning. I think you enjoy the hate so much it blinds you.

Aldroud's posts are shocking, but I think that certain members of the board are blowing it even more out of proportion so they can condemn him...

While I stated my opinion about Aldroud's original post earlier, I do think people came down on him a little hard here. As I said about him in the chat forum, it's good to at least hear the other side, and we should hope the truth will prevail.
If people didn't give him reason to act like a martyr, he might not act like one. Not that I'm excusing his irritating tendency to find the "right-wing" position on every issue and defend it regardless of logic or reason, or his genocidal fantasies, but if people had made more of an attempt to respond to his arguments (which were generally pretty weak) and less to attack him, he might not have become a monster.

 

[Darkest]

Man, why is it that all of my threads have someone being banned?!

Seriously! I've had several people banned in my threads! ARGH!!!

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Man, why is it that all of my threads have someone being banned?!

Seriously! I've had several people banned in my threads! ARGH!!!

Make one that only Tielhard would respond to.....

Or..... well several other people who have said ban-worthy things in the past, but for some 'mysterious' reason weren't even warned.

Makes you wonder how many people have been scared away over the years. We could have missed out on some interesting stuff, if we (read: the people in charge) were more balanced.

Note: I am not advocating nuking anything. FAE's, maybe, but never nukes.

 

[MrP]

Make one that only Tielhard would respond to.....

Or..... well several other people who have said ban-worthy things in the past, but for some 'mysterious' reason weren't even warned.

Makes you wonder how many people have been scared away over the years. We could have missed out on some interesting stuff, if we (read: the people in charge) were more balanced.

Note: I am not advocating nuking anything. FAE's, maybe, but never nukes.

Well, don't forget that Ian isn't omnipresent or omniscient. I remember several occasions when Aldroud complained about Ian's supposed bias. But it's worthwhile remembering that Ian almost certainly isn't going to spot somebody being a ban-worthy twit unless you click on the little "Report Post" tag in the top right of each post. I think that several people clicked it in this case.

Did you tap the report post function in the top corner of the post in these instances? Plus, it's worth noting Ian's own words on this: people who've been about here a while are more likely to get a warning than people who've just arrived and start being irritating.

In Aldroud's case, while I myself wouldn't have banned him, I have been constantly worried about his dispassionate mathematical view of the Middle East as a pusrely military problem. As Ian points out, Aldroud has been consistently contentious, and has been kicked twice recently for various things.

Now, one can take Aldroud's side and support his right to free speech without limits - but a) that would clearly lead to far less civilised discourse, b) this isn't a forum for espousing mass murder (Ian's made that clear several times), and c) there's a certain level of polite behaviour expected of guests in one's home. Ian's board. Ian's rules.

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Well, don't forget that Ian isn't omnipresent or omniscient.

Well maybe Ian isn't, but I.A.N. certainly is.

I remember several occasions when Aldroud complained about Ian's supposed bias.

He's not the only one...

But it's worthwhile remembering that Ian almost certainly isn't going to spot somebody being a ban-worthy twit unless you click on the little "Report Post" tag in the top right of each post.

<Makes mental note>

I think that several people clicked it in this case.

Did you tap the report post function in the top corner of the post in these instances?

I'll keep an eye out. I usually wait a day or two before responding in Chat these days.

Plus, it's worth noting Ian's own words on this: people who've been about here a while are more likely to get a warning than people who've just arrived and start being irritating.

It's not like he was the only one who had been warned for similiar stuff. <Repeats what he said at the beginning>

In Aldroud's case, while I myself wouldn't have banned him, I have been constantly worried about his dispassionate mathematical view of the Middle East as a pusrely military problem. As Ian points out, Aldroud has been consistently contentious, and has been kicked twice recently for various things.

Now, one can take Aldroud's side and support his right to free speech without limits -

Or?

but a) that would clearly lead to far less civilised discourse,

Have you been in one of (you know who you are)'s threads recently?

b) this isn't a forum for espousing mass murder (Ian's made that clear several times),

Nobody's told you know who you are and the other one?

and c) there's a certain level of polite behaviour expected of guests in one's home.

<Scratches neck> So.... um..... Yeah, you'd think.

Ian's board. Ian's rules.

I'd start my own, but, you know, it'd be crap.

 

[MrP]

I'd start my own, but, you know, it'd be crap.

Well, there y'go. If the price one pays for the pleasure of everyone's company and the ability to pick their brains is having to moderate one's language slightly, is it really that bad?

Or do I only think that because I habitually moderate my language anyway?

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Well, there y'go. If the price one pays for the pleasure of everyone's company and the ability to pick their brains is having to moderate one's language slightly, is it really that bad?

I wouldn't mind it so much except it's harder to get banned for saying, oh, we got what we deserved five years ago, as opposed to, we should have hit harder. I could go on, but I'm just so tired.

Or do I only think that because I habitually moderate my language anyway?

Who invented rhetorical questions, anyway? And why am I so tired?

 

[Floid]

I wouldn't mind it so much except it's harder to get banned for saying, oh, we got what we deserved five years ago, as opposed to, we should have hit harder. I could go on, but I'm just so tired.

Can you show me who said the US deserved what they got 5 years ago and link me to the post directly?

 

[luakel]

Can you show me who said the US deserved what they got 5 years ago and link me to the post directly?

Yeah, ES, a better example of radical left posts would be the "WI Bush Assassinated" thread in BMGW. And even some of the claims in there (like that those who don't want the movie banned want Bush killed ) don't really compare to saying we should drop a few nukes at random because we were attacked.

 

[MrP]

I wouldn't mind it so much except it's harder to get banned for saying, oh, we got what we deserved five years ago, as opposed to, we should have hit harder. I could go on, but I'm just so tired.

Like Floid, I can't think of the post you mean. Aldroud posted an article from The Telegraph earlier in which she mentioned some reporters saying pretty much that, but I don't recall seeing such sentiments on here.

I do recall several suggestions that there were deficiencies in American intelligence and that these should be a matter of priority - or that America's unflinching support for Israel makes it a valid target in the eyes of Islamist terrorists. But that isn't the same thing as saying that those attacks were deserved - merely that they can be understood. After all, one can understand what Hitler was without feeling that the Poles, gays, blacks, Jews or Slavs deserved him.

Who invented rhetorical questions, anyway? And why am I so tired?

I blame the ancient Greek philosopher Thande of Athens.

 

[EvolvedSaurian]

Can you show me who said the US deserved what they got 5 years ago and link me to the post directly?

Yeah, ES, a better example of radical left posts would be the "WI Bush Assassinated" thread in BMGW. And even some of the claims in there (like that those who don't want the movie banned want Bush killed ) don't really compare to saying we should drop a few nukes at random because we were attacked.

Like Floid, I can't think of the post you mean. Aldroud posted an article from The Telegraph earlier in which she mentioned some reporters saying pretty much that, but I don't recall seeing such sentiments on here.

It was a while ago, somebody(whose search function works) could probably find it. I'd be very grateful to some one who could pull it up.

I do recall several suggestions that there were deficiencies in American intelligence and that these should be a matter of priority - or that America's unflinching support for Israel makes it a valid target in the eyes of Islamist terrorists. But that isn't the same thing as saying that those attacks were deserved - merely that they can be understood. After all, one can understand what Hitler was without feeling that the Poles, gays, blacks, Jews or Slavs deserved him.

That's understandable, they don't like Isreal, we do, hence conflict. Intelligence needs work. Not sure what you mean by that last bit. My brain's just not working anymore.

I blame the ancient Greek philosopher Thande of Athens.

Thandocrates, you mean?

 

[MrP]

It was a while ago, somebody(whose search function works) could probably find it. I'd be very grateful to some one who could pull it up.

Strangely, when I search for "America deserved 911" the search function freezes up and I get a white page. Searching for something else ("Fish" in this case) works fine.

That's understandable, they don't like Isreal, we do, hence conflict. Intelligence needs work. Not sure what you mean by that last bit. My brain's just not working anymore.

That expressing understanding of why someone commits a morally reprehensible act does not necessarily carry any expression of support for that act. Cherie Blair, wife of our beloved leader, said she could understand why young Palestinians were becoming suicide bombers. There was a big furore in the media about this supposed expression of support for terrorism. It was a big pile of steaming crap created by people deliberately misunderstanding her to sell more newspapers. She said she understood why they did it, nothing more. Not that she felt it was a great plan, nor did she even blame anyone.*

Thandocrates, you mean?

Wasn't that Thandocrates of Samos? Were there two? I get so easily confused. I blame Thandocrates!

* It's open to debate whether she was blaming the cruddy Israeli policies in Palestine, the shitty and corrupt political system in Palestine itself at the time, the other nations that closed their borders on Palestinian refugees decades ago, the self-perpetuating cycle of bombing, missile-strike and hatred or a combination of the lot.

 

[Flocculencio]

If people didn't give him reason to act like a martyr, he might not act like one. Not that I'm excusing his irritating tendency to find the "right-wing" position on every issue and defend it regardless of logic or reason, or his genocidal fantasies, but if people had made more of an attempt to respond to his arguments (which were generally pretty weak) and less to attack him, he might not have become a monster.

Thats true but to me, and I think to a number of other non-Americans here, his genocidal fantasies were quite frightening. As someone who routinely gets searched and rigorously questioned whenever he enters the US, Aldroud's statements weren't academic hypotheticals- he was really advocating the extermination of people not too much unlike myself.

 

[CalBear]

Strangely, when I search for "America deserved 911" the search function freezes up and I get a white page. Searching for something else ("Fish" in this case) works fine.

Interestingly enough the same thing happens with mine. I tried something I knew wouldn't be here "Bismark was a Herring" and it told me no matches, but I didn't get a white screen.

OH NO!!!

THEY ARE HERE!(whoever they are?)

RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!!!

 

[MrP]

Interestingly enough the same thing happens with mine. I tried something I knew wouldn't be here "Bismark was a Herring" and it told me no matches, but I didn't get a white screen.

OH NO!!!

THEY ARE HERE!(whoever they are?)

RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!!!

This is pretty weird. Stuff comes up for "911" or for "USA responsible 911" but there are four people (including us two) so far who've got the white screen when trying to search for that specific phrase. I wonder if it's an anti-Collins device.

 

[Leo Caesius]

This is pretty weird. Stuff comes up for "911" or for "USA responsible 911" but there are four people (including us two) so far who've got the white screen when trying to search for that specific phrase. I wonder if it's an anti-Collins device.

I get the white screen of death as well.

 

[MrP]

I get the white screen of death as well.

Hm, Flocc's suggested that it's Agent Ferguson's influence.

 

[Doctor What]

I get the white screen of death as well.

Got it myself but with perservance I got this:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/search.php?searchid=244857

Nope---almost all the hits are this very thread....

 

[Alayta]

It seems like any post or opinion that's anti-American is allowed to go on and encouraged, but if an American or someone pro-American posts, everybody jumps on him. What's the deal with this? Everyone else here evidently live in nations that have never made any mistakes or pursued ill-advised policies in their histories. I'm impressed!

This accusation is often made!!!
Why? Is it true and we left liberals are bathing in self-justice?
Or is it because the right-wing americans are so deep into defense that they cant behave?
Sometimes I am really not so sure.

Last week I met an american in my bar. He was like that! Said we germans had the duty to fight with israel dur to the "things that happend in the past" meaning holocaust.
I said like : following that argument, the US should invesst much more in africa due to the things that happend in the past. He wanted to leave the bar imediatatly.

 

[Ian the Admin]

While I stated my opinion about Aldroud's original post earlier, I do think people came down on him a little hard here. As I said about him in the chat forum, it's good to at least hear the other side, and we should hope the truth will prevail.

I couldn't disagree more.

This is an alternate history board, not a no-holds-barred politics board. The chat forum is for people to discuss off-topic things, including politics, in a *civil* manner.

There are some opinions that are simply so reprehensible (or so deliberately annoying in a trollish sense) that I cannot honestly expect people to respond to them in a civil manner. Some opinions should be treated with the utter derision which they deserve - and since I don't want that derision to be thrown around here, people expressing those opinions are shown the door.

The idea that respectfully debating nutty extremists results in the truth winning out is naive. Giving them a respectful public hearing frequently just acts to legitimize their opinions. That's one reason why prominent biologists avoid debating creationists, except for Richard Dawkins who makes them look like fools by combining the truth with a lot of rhetorical skill and debating experience.

If people didn't give him reason to act like a martyr, he might not act like one.

How, exactly, did people ever give Aldroud reason to "act like a Martyr"?

Not that I'm excusing his irritating tendency to find the "right-wing" position on every issue and defend it regardless of logic or reason, or his genocidal fantasies, but if people had made more of an attempt to respond to his arguments (which were generally pretty weak) and less to attack him, he might not have become a monster.

I don't recall seeing Aldroud attacked except in this thread. He was actually not shy in reporting posts he believed to be attacking him, and in pretty much every case it would be some mild rebuke in a thread where he'd said something pretty stupid.