Discussion: Modernized Native American Civilization?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by KingOnTheEdge, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. KingOnTheEdge Vive La Revolucion

    Mar 12, 2019
    If you look at a map of the world you can usually find a place that escaped the europeans during colonialism. your ethiopias, japans, or turkeys. There is one massive exception. The Americas. There isn't an industrialized Incan Republic, or a Chinook empire from Alaska to the Bay of California, or anything. (though in fairness i doubt it would be in N.America if the US existed)

    Let's fix that. With any POD you choose, make one native american tribe retain sovereignty into the modern day. make them as big as you want and as important on the world stage as you want, but they need to be sovereign over their nation state.
  2. Wendell Wendell

    Jun 8, 2005
    Lost in what might have been
    If the thirteen states go their separate ways after independence, one might see one or more partially Europeanized Native American states develop in the Southeast.
  3. Ivan Lupo Well-Known Member

    Oct 2, 2018
    Los Angeles, CA
    Alternatively, if the British win the Revolutionary War and hold onto the 13 colonies, the Cherokee nation probably stands a good chance of survival, especially if they are able to get some of the other "civilized" tribes to join them.

    Surely the Inca if Spain never managed to make it into that portion of South America and instead begin to trade with the Incas. Catholicism slowly begins to filter in, the Inca state slowly declines and during any number of civil wars, Spain weighs in heavily, able to support whom they want. The Incan kingdom is still too big for still-nerfed Spain to fully conquer, but they're able to take bits and pieces here and there and Spanish-supported factions have access to Spanish tech. Generations and centuries later, the still independent Inca state is slowly beginning to catch up technologically and their alliance with Spain prevents other colonial powers from taking their lands. Soon, the Incan kingdom is seen as much a competitor as an ally to Spain, and when Spain begins it's colonial decline, the Incan kingdom is able to take over some of their lost lands and left as a regional hegemon with defensible terrain, immense resources, and the technology to defend themselves.
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  4. Byzantion Well-Known Member

    Nov 13, 2013
    Forum Romanum, Suburra
    An organized Iroquese Federation would be interesting. Maybe a rump Aztec State which hires European mercenaries, gunsmiths and professionals.
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
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  5. VirginiaStronk Stop Stalin, update!

    Sep 16, 2017
    Didn’t all of the Aztecs neighbors hate them, for the human sacrifice? Wouldn’t they try to ruin the rump state, for revenge and their own benefit?
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  6. Arcavius Arms and the Man I Sing

    Aug 10, 2018
    Isnt otl Paraguay majority native?
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  7. Analytical Engine Monarchist Collectivist Federalist

    Mar 12, 2007
    UK, EU (for the moment), Earth
    When you say "retain sovereignty", does an independent Neo-Incan Empire that breaks away from Peru during the Latin American Wars of Independence count?
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  8. FranzAncheNo Citizen of the Republic of Pistoia

    Oct 8, 2018
    Republic of Pistoia
    Like the USA collapse and the FCTs have time to pull a Meiji?
  9. Dathi THorfinnsson Daði Þorfinnsson

    Apr 13, 2007
    Syracuse, Haudenosaunee, Vinland
    Could the Aztecs have held off Cortez? Sure, it's not hard. Could they have held them off indefinitely? Much harder to do.

    Look at India. Large, well organized polities, yet European powers managed to carve out whatever bits they wanted, with Britain ending up running the whole subcontinent, essentially.
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  10. Legofan4 American Nationalist

    Dec 5, 2013
    Chicago, USA
    I agree. India as well had a much larger population after the diseases introduced by the Europeans swept through the Americas. The Indian kingdoms also had equivalent technology to the Europeans for much of the early colonial period.
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  11. Aqua817 Eternally Exhausted

    May 11, 2014
    "Alexander McGillvary's Muscogee Empire was forged in fire, blood, and British support. The Muscogee Empire has come under scrutiny recently for it's atrocity denialism, especially when it comes to it's slaver past. However, Muscogee representatives in the World Union insist and always have insisted that these were simply products of their time, especially considering the things around it. Indeed, only a few months after the nation's independence, revolutionary war hero Elijah Clarke illegally crossed the Oconee river in Georgia and began burning Muscogee towns. However, between putting down the nascent Red Stick Revival and negotiating several treaties with Britain and the Interconfederated States, the Muscogee Empire was able to carve out a niche for itself. This was in no small part due to Alexander McGillvary's foreign gallivants that won him the respect of European and American alike.

    McGillvary, also known by his Muscogee name Hoboi-Hili-Miko, was a son of a Scottish plantation owner in southeastern North America. Growing up, McGillvary was exposed to the wider trading world of Europe, as well as stepped in the culture of the local Muscogee native americans. Indeed, one of the earliest accounts of him that we have was when he visited the notorious Nodoroc site, where he began propagating the story that he had fought and killed the infamous Wog monster that lived there. While quickly condemned by conservative Muscogee leaders as trying to commercialize and Europeanize their ancient culture, more and more imaginative stories about this man were printed in European publishing houses. In fact, McGillvary himself became the inspiration for several adventurers in the early 1800's, the most famous being the first King of Hellas, the good Lord Byron. Stories of a Forgotten Life, an collaborative work of poetry between McGillvary and Byron, is still often taught today in public schools across the English-speaking world.

    However, McGillvary was as shrewd as he was charming. During the Wars of the French Revolution, McGillvary was able to establish the port of New Itaba, formerly Spanish Pensacola, to help trade British goods with the far more wary Cherokee and Chickasaw nations, in return for pelts and other goods that could be shipped back to Britain without harrying by the L
    égions Indigènes, nomadic Native American tribes armed by the French in Louisiana to chase out Spanish and British traders in the vast middle lands of North America.

    By 1813, the tide of the world was changing. The Rationalist Regime of France had been overthrown and members of the Bourbon monarchy reestablished on the French throne. Quebec ultimately was returned to France, as it was both seen as far too expensive to maintain and also a distraction tpwards from the rather unprofitable markets of North America and away from the British Indies and the Anglo-Dutch Spice Islands Company. In 1824, Alexander McGillvary died, leaving his rather-scandalously bred son Gordon McGillvary on the Muscogee throne. Gordon McGillvary, while nowhere near as charismatic as his father, had a particular fascination with demographics and logistics. He established factories across the Muscogee Empire, to compensate for the rapidly approaching British abolition of slavery which would spell doom for the Muscogee slave trade as well. After a brief war with the Alabama and the Koaxati, the iron-rich Red Mountains came under his control. Millions of tons of iron would ultimately be extracted from these massive deposits, enough to turn the once rather barren farmland and countryside of the Muscogee Empire into an amalgram of steel and smoke. Gordon's rule over the Muscogee was not without it's blunders. In 1836, Gordon began passing legislation for the unambiguous criminalization of slavery. This infuriated many of the white planters that had helped establish the Muscogee Empire as a way to gain more land apart from the rapidly filling Georgia and Carolinas. Many of these planters decided to outright kill their slaves, which lead to the Great African Revolt (1845), which was only quashed after the Chatot Accords, guaranteeing rights towards anyone
    living within the "traditional territory" of the Muscogee Empire. On the one hand, modern thinkers champion these accords as the first legislation in the Americas granting rights to citizens regardless of skin color. However, others mention that what could be defined as the "traditional territory" of the Muscogee Empire could easily be subject to change depending on region and judge. This was only solved in the late 1930s when Brock v. Abrams forced the Empire to officially extend the "traditional territory" to all lands held by the Muscogee Empire in North America.

    [Several pages of the book are lost. There are a few snippets detaling a possible Muscogee colonial empire in Africa, but these are even more whitewashed than the glowing reports of McGillvary. There are also reports suggesting the Empire became a constitutional monarchy after it's near destruction in a large war in the early 20th century.]

    -pire today is a vibrant, united nation. Old men, drinking the Black Drink on their porches in New Itaba, in the distinctive almost Southeast-Asianesque homes that dot the land on massive stilts to prevent hurricane surge from washing them away. In the city proper, goods of all kinds are bought and sold, both in person, and on the new Interweb that has swept the nation. I would like to think that McGillvary would smile on us if he could see how our nation has pulled itself together to forge a new and glorious future for you, me, and all Muscogee.

    Affa Primus, 2034."
  12. SaucePlease Banned

    Feb 13, 2017
    Bolivia is majority Indigenous American (it's literally the only country that can say that). A Bolivia wank involving the Incans could see it flourish as a Native American state.
  13. SenatorErnesto Well-Known Member

    Mar 24, 2017
    There was a proposal to give the Delaware tribe of Native Americans statehood in return for their support in the revolution but it never came to fruition/never taken seriously by the American negotiators. Not exactly a free Advanced Native American Civilization but it’s better than the current affairs.

    Honestly if at some point you get the fledging United States to admit a Native state where that state’s government is the formal tribal one, and is respected and represented in the Federal Government, it could set a precedent to continually do it as the country settles the West. It’s a hard and radical change but I do not see it as impossible.
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  14. John7755 يوحنا Lightweight Faqih

    Dec 30, 2014
    That is a bit skewed and in favoritism to supposed notions of mestizo. The situation is more complex than saying that Bolivia is the only primarily indigenous country in the Western Hemisphere.
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  15. CalBear Your Ursus arctos californicus Moderator Moderator Donor

    Oct 4, 2005
    "Best", for value of best, hope it to have a somewhat more successful Norse settlement, with an expansion onto the Continent from Newfoundland. Settlement with enough live stock that enough get away to found wild herds and one that gets effectively wiped out by a series of diseases (small pox, influenza, measles, mumps) that get passed onto the native population on around 1,100 CE.

    That results in the same horror show as IOTL, which is effectively unavoidable whenever a high R-naught pathogen gets into a pristine population, but also gives the population 400 years to recover, gives them at least knowledge of what the hell a horse is, and results in the early Spanish expeditions getting their asses handed to them. It won't make up for things like gunpowder and steel weapons, but you should wind up with the Inka, Southeast or Upper Midwest tribe being able to hold onto something.

    What ensured that the New World would be utterly overrun was the obliteration of 90% of the population thanks to diseases.
  16. SaucePlease Banned

    Feb 13, 2017
    Okay what are the other ones? The only other one I can think of is Guatemala and that country is about half Mestizo and half Indigenous.

    If you want to count Mestizos as fully Native American, than there already a bunch of modernized Native American civilizations.
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  17. BellaGerant Well-Known Member

    Apr 21, 2017
    That doesn't completely fix the issue though, seeing as 400 years is more than enough for new strains of the diseases which the North American natives have no immunity to to pop up. That's not to mention altogether newer diseases, like the 2nd plague outbreak. European populations had acquired resistance against the plague but they still had recurrences that killed millions of people from Spain to Russia for centuries, despite there only being a few years between such outbreaks. None quite as bad as the Black Death but plague wasn't a 'one and done' affair and having hereditary immunity against diseases from 400 years prior probably won't help the North Americans all that much, unless they regularly get diseases from the Old World that would introduce newer strains and diseases.
  18. Ibn Chaldun Commander of the Bolivian Navy

    Oct 21, 2018
    Actually I’m surprised no one has brought up the Mapuche. They only lost their independence in the 1880s when Chile annexed their territories.
    The Spanish before actually had recognized their independence.

    Having the Mapuche stay independent and in the process industrialize should be possible. Yes, we are not talking Europe-Level here, but South America average should be doable.
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  19. John7755 يوحنا Lightweight Faqih

    Dec 30, 2014
    The point is, in countries such as Mexico, there was/is a trend to displace the identity of predominately indigenous peoples as mestizo. Thus, the erasure of peoples who while not entirely indigenous, are significantly more indigenous than European or African. My view is not that these countries are as if the Mesoamerican civilizational complex never ended, but to place more nuance on the view that everyone became mestizo and a new cultural identity was borne as a mixture, that is spoken of by Mexican national policy and even by other countries, such as Peru, Ecuador and others.

    Regarding these states you asked me to mention, states that require more nuance to this question include,

    El Salvador
    Parts of Colombia
    Parts of Venezuela
    Parts of Argentina (north)
    Parts of Chile, Mapuche lands in the north
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  20. Lenwe Well-Known Member

    Mar 9, 2015
    And Argentina, Almost every one forget the Puelmapu and the Argentina Massacre of the Pampean Mapuches, the Conquest of the dessert was as important to the reduction of the Mapuche State as was the Pacification of the Araucania, one could argue that was even more significant as the conquest have a lot of Massacres and the pacification was more a De jure justification of a De facto situation, as a lot of the Soldier that fight were Mapuches that were in favor or against the Chilean government, in Argentina almost all the Mapuches were against Argentina
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