Discussion: Korea pulls a Meiji but China and Japan don't

Rush Tarquin

Gone Fishin'
What circumstances would allow Korea to pull a Meiji while Japan and China do not? What developments do you think you'd see in Asia in such a situation?
 
It would have to be less tied to china to start with. The first few times Europeans turned up at Korea they apparently responded with go to the Chinase we do what they do.

Edit Aaaah it seems I have inadvertantly become practitioner of the dark arts.
 

Tsao

Banned
Edit Aaaah it seems I have inadvertantly become practitioner of the dark arts.
...................

ThreadNecro.jpg
 
Japan not pulling a Meiji is certainly possible. I could imagine both Japan and China being stuck in civil war mode for the better part of the 19th century.

Korea would then need a different personality. I would set the pod pretty early, make it less conservative and more curious.
 

Sumeragi

Banned
Korea would then need a different personality. I would set the pod pretty early, make it less conservative and more curious.

Not necessarily. A Korean defeat in the Byeongin Yangyo (French-Korean Conflict) in 1866 could probably place Korea in the position where it would start its modernization.

Strangely enough, it was in 1866 that the Satcho Alliance was formed in Japan.
 

Rush Tarquin

Gone Fishin'
Not necessarily. A Korean defeat in the Byeongin Yangyo (French-Korean Conflict) in 1866 could probably place Korea in the position where it would start its modernization.

But then that should have resulted from the US Korean Expedition. Instead military success led to an even harder line of isolationism.

Holding Seoul to ransom might do it, since that's what did it for Japan.
 

Sumeragi

Banned
But then that should have resulted from the US Korean Expedition. Instead military success led to an even harder line of isolationism.

Holding Seoul to ransom might do it, since that's what did it for Japan.

1871 is probably too late since Joseon would only have 4 years before the Ganghwa Incident. We would have to have the Meiji Reforms be halted before than, which makes a too many butterflies for my personal tastes.
 

Rush Tarquin

Gone Fishin'
1871 is probably too late since Joseon would only have 4 years before the Ganghwa Incident. We would have to have the Meiji Reforms be halted before than, which makes a too many butterflies for my personal tastes.

Yeah I was thinking of the 1866 incident. Incidentally, I think if the French hadn't intervened in Mexico, they would have been likely to come back bigger and better. The French force would have to be successful enough to put a scare into the Koreans, but not so much that the French would succeed in doing what the Japanese did later in OTL only earlier, if there is such a sweet spot. On the plus side, I doubt the French would want anything more in Korea than what they got in Thailand.

EDIT: When I made this thread, I was looking to discuss 20th century repercussions, but this more rightly belongs pre-1900. I'm going to request it be moved.
 
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Assuming Joseon pulls a Meiji, notwithstanding exactly how it's done, just that it's done, would Korea be able to ascend to say, great power status, and if so, could that lead to Korea attempting to make a colonial empire? In irony of ironies, perhaps, create a Korean Japan, with an administrative capital at 동경 (Korean pronunciation for Tokyo's hanja/kanji)?
 
I don't think a Meiji Korea would have as much maritime projection as Japan IOTL. Pushing for an independent Manchuria to act as a buffer against both China and Russia would be a possible priority. Wether Korea can do it, even after a Meiji, I'm still not so sure.
 
I don't think a Meiji Korea would have as much maritime projection as Japan IOTL. Pushing for an independent Manchuria to act as a buffer against both China and Russia would be a possible priority. Wether Korea can do it, even after a Meiji, I'm still not so sure.

Maritime projection is definitely a possibility. I'm basing that off of both Korea's current Navy as well as the history, turtle ships and such, they most certainly have the naval tradition at least historically to do that, and currently they have one or two helicopter carriers operational out of four planned, which they may be upgrading in-effect to light aircraft carriers if they get some VTOL F-35s. On the other hand, thank you for mentioning the Manchurian option, forgot that what with living in SK on what is in effect an island country. If Korea did go for an independent Manchuria or puppet state, I assume Manchuria would have to be at least big enough to cover all of the Tumen and the Yalu.

Assuming again, Japan doesn't modernize, what could happen to them? Would they be partially or wholly colonized by Korea, or would they get something like what China got, say, Korean, French, American, British etc. quarters in Tokyo and other major cities?
 
Is Japan worth colonizing? Little in the way of natural resources, limited agricultural land...

So probably what China got.
 
Is Japan worth colonizing? Little in the way of natural resources, limited agricultural land...

So probably what China got.

ooh, one thing also, that would be very useful to a more powerful Korea in this scenario, perhaps after a short analogue of the Russo-Japanese or Sino-Japanese war, instead of colonizing Japan outright, at least gaining several ports or naval bases. Maybe at most if Korea did annex/colonize anything from Japan, it would be something small like that, say, Okinawa, or another small possession ala Hong Kong and the New Territories with the UK in China. That would give them at least additional naval projection power. They still have the problem of China being able to overwhelm with sheer numbers, but with Manchuria as a buffer state from China and Russia, and naval facilities in Japan, Okinawa and Jeju, maybe Taiwan, that would be an interesting path to lead Korea on.
 
Maritime projection is definitely a possibility. I'm basing that off of both Korea's current Navy as well as the history, turtle ships and such, they most certainly have the naval tradition at least historically to do that, and currently they have one or two helicopter carriers operational out of four planned, which they may be upgrading in-effect to light aircraft carriers if they get some VTOL F-35s. On the other hand, thank you for mentioning the Manchurian option, forgot that what with living in SK on what is in effect an island country. If Korea did go for an independent Manchuria or puppet state, I assume Manchuria would have to be at least big enough to cover all of the Tumen and the Yalu.

But as you know, Yi Sun Shin is centuries in the past and the modern naval development is a byproduct of the Cold War. If we go with a 19th century POD, then the "hermite kingdom" is all we have to begin with.

Industrialization doesn't happen overnight and the original situation at the start is different from what Japan had IOTL. Japan's first "task", so to speak, was unifying a bunch of clans and islands. Korea's first "task" will be throwing the Chinese out. So wvwn if the national "awakening" is sparked by Western ships as in Japan, it's a strong army ready to defeat the Chinese despite its numerical disadvantage and keep them from coming back that will be Korea's first priority.

It might happen that by the time Korea has the time and resources to produce a modern navy every Pacific island will have been already claimed by Western powers and Japan carved up in foreign spheres of influence.

Now, being a land based power doesn't have to be bad at all. Once an analogue of the Great War comes along, everybody will want to have on its side that "Prussia of the Far East" that defeated China and Russia, without generating the fear/hostility that Japan did by being seen as a potential colony snatcher.
 
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